Psychedelics

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:41 pm

All you need to do is hang out in the drug culture for a while to see how much they "open up the eyes" of most people, very little. usually they are escapism, which may make people feel better, or even more realized in the short term, but in the long term there's a big crash.

Is everyone that way? No, i'm sure some can and do get some benefit from them, but obviously, it is not most people that do them.

P.S. There's like...a Buddhist anger-pheromone vibe to this whole thread that is really amusing heh.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby gyougan » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:54 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:All you need to do is hang out in the drug culture for a while to see how much they "open up the eyes" of most people, very little. usually they are escapism, which may make people feel better, or even more realized in the short term, but in the long term there's a big crash.

Is everyone that way? No, i'm sure some can and do get some benefit from them, but obviously, it is not most people that do them.

P.S. There's like...a Buddhist anger-pheromone vibe to this whole thread that is really amusing heh.


Is it the fault of psychedelics if fools abuse them?

It almost breaks my heart to see this prejucide against psychedelics, because humanity loses SO MUCH by rejecting their positive effects.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:46 pm

if the druggies would actually show the benefits of psychedelics then maybe the public's opinion would change, but as long as they are connected with the drug abuser '' group '' they will be unwanted and ignored.

i myself have taken psychedelics on many occasion and one very strong experience changed my life, but all my friends no one had any life changing experience on them, and i know so many people who have taken psychedelics but there is no change, nothing changes for the better. in fact in many cases it alienates them from society and furthers the causes and conditions for more and more drug use.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:44 pm

gyougan wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:All you need to do is hang out in the drug culture for a while to see how much they "open up the eyes" of most people, very little. usually they are escapism, which may make people feel better, or even more realized in the short term, but in the long term there's a big crash.

Is everyone that way? No, i'm sure some can and do get some benefit from them, but obviously, it is not most people that do them.

P.S. There's like...a Buddhist anger-pheromone vibe to this whole thread that is really amusing heh.


Is it the fault of psychedelics if fools abuse them?

It almost breaks my heart to see this prejucide against psychedelics, because humanity loses SO MUCH by rejecting their positive effects.


No one is at "fault" for anything, but if 90% of people using the substances are worse rather than better (in a Buddhist sense, more grasping, craving, suffering), then obviously it speaks to the lack of usefulness of the substance for most people in spiritual pursuits.

Humanity loses so much by being humanity, psychedelics don't eliminate the three poisons, and they don't pull someone out of samsara, they just cover things up so you can have fun.

It's not a prejudice, it's an opinion, and one I can explain, you can't write something off as "prejudice" just because you don't agree with it.

I've just had my experiences with attempts at "spiritual" use of drugs, and certainly known enough psychedelic users to say that literally something like 95% of the people i've known - a big number are worse off, not better in terms of suffering, to me that's pretty telling.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:16 am

Plus, as I've posted before, we have underage members here, specifically 'flowerbudh' and 'tiger98', and possibly more than that. For them to see people endorse illegal activity that can, and many times has, had disastrous consequences might even be deemed criminal in certain locals. Keep that in mind.

Discussion of this sort where underage people can read them are one thing. Discussion where some naive newbie is all enthusiastic, but no underage people can read it can be handled differently. Discussions between experienced adults, where some are still using those substances would lend itself to another type of discussion. And a discussion between experienced adults that have left all that behind and found Dharma would lend itself to another type of discussion.

But all that is theoretical. The bottom line here is that there are underage members that can, and almost certainly are, reading this thread and these posts. For us to behave with self-indulgence and insist that our own petty perspectives be aired without considering the audience is completely contrary to Dharma. As someone that was exposed to psychedelics much too early in life--and suffered greatly because of it--I want to protect good people from suffering the way I did.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:23 am

Spread awareness, not panic. Better to read and have some knowledge, then fall into a trap of emotional pressure created by peers.
There are different kinds of psychedelics, but all will make an undeveloped brain work differently. This may, and probably will, be seen as damaging. And this will be a permanent damage. Taking any type of psychedelic drug when ones brain is not fully developed, is a shot in the foot. Even "medical" marijuana will change the way memory works, and no one who is dedicated to learning will want to have this kind of problem.
Nevertheless, there is dishonesty in the society regarding those substances, and I think that this is the direct cause of damage and suffering psychoactive substances create. We have beer commercials all over the place, while alcohol is certainly the worse psychoactive substance available. What a hypocrisy. No drug is more damaging to society then alcohol, but still it's ok to promote it. Living in such confusion teens will try everything, fall under the spell of bliss creating drugs, and show the adult wise asses, a middle finger. Treating teens like a underclass, certainly wan't solve the problem.
A short talk came to my mind:


Honesty is the only way out, and since our discussion presents all different views on the subject, it shows that it's not a simple thing, even for adults.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:02 pm

Yes, well, you are presenting it as a generation gap problem but it is anything but that. People here are talking from their personal experience. Now experience normally comes with time. But sharing one's experience is not the problem, not listening to others experience is the problem,

But if you want to reinvent the wheel, go for it. In tweny years or so from now, you will probably be trying to tell somebody else the same thing that everybody is trying to tell you right now. ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:11 pm

Is this a responding to my post? I doesn't look like, but since it's directly under it, and with no quotation, it may look like this.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby seeker242 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:26 pm

Vasana wrote:I won't back track on the other things already said thread, but i whole heartedly feel it worth pointing our that there are some plants,vines and psychoactive substances that enable one under proper guidance and intent to perceive both the sentience of that plant and/or, enable one to perceive and potentially interact with sentient beings that reside within the plant and natural realm.


I would not doubt that. :smile: But I think the idea that a lot of people have is "How is that going to train your mind to have less greed, ill-will, ignorance?" In other words, how is it connected to the goal of liberation of Buddhism? If it's not connected to the goal of liberation, then what's the point of doing it?

:namaste:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:38 pm

it can open your mind into a completely new dimension and remove so many limitations and barriers, that is the good side, the bad side that it is dangerous and can with equal potential do harm, cause psychosis, and invent your own theories and beliefs about how things are and thus live in a utopia disconnected from the rest of the world. you can also become obsessive about the good side of psychedelics and also obsessive to share your experience with everyone. which is not always so good since they can not understand you.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby seeker242 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:12 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:it can open your mind into a completely new dimension and remove so many limitations and barriers, that is the good side, the bad side that it is dangerous and can with equal potential do harm, cause psychosis, and invent your own theories and beliefs about how things are and thus live in a utopia disconnected from the rest of the world. you can also become obsessive about the good side of psychedelics and also obsessive to share your experience with everyone. which is not always so good since they can not understand you.


That seems to be the case. But at the same time, just practicing the dharma, doing meditation, etc has the same effect of opening your mind into a completely new dimension and removing limitations and barriers, but with no bad side of it. Why choose the option of a thing that has a good side and a bad side over the thing that has only a good side and no bad side?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:14 pm

exactly
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:16 pm

i heard when i was in india that some people were in retreat in tibetan monastery this happened i think in the 60s or 70s and the couple had some drugs with them and they offered probably lsd to the rinpoche or lama and he took it, the couple said they attained enlightenment with that and the rinpoche said that this is double samsara. :juggling: :rolleye:
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:17 pm

Living in such confusion teens will try everything, fall under the spell of bliss creating drugs, and show the adult wise asses, a middle finger. Treating teens like a underclass, certainly wan't solve the problem.
A short talk came to my mind:

A small child is unaware. They don't know anything. Letting them find out by trial and error is dooming them to much unnecessary error and therefore suffering. It is the natural order of things for the aware adult to correctly instruct the unaware child in what to do and not do in order to thrive and survive. These are, at first, given as rules; do's and dont's. Later there may, or may not be, explanations and understandings. With understandings there is flexibility and awareness. Without there is rigidity and closed mindedness. But in any case until the being is sufficiently aware, the rules must remain for that being's own protection. Teenagers think they are aware enough, but they are not. Their professional, social, interpersonal and personal skills have not developed enough for them to be self-sufficient. The rules still apply to them.

And, as a footnote, the Buddha's greater awareness is to our unawareness analogous to an adult's awareness to a child's. Hence the emphasis on the Pratimoksha Vows in the Shravakayana.
Last edited by smcj on Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby montana » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:26 pm

Psychedelics are really useless.
You're already hallucinating inherent existence and all these categories for things.
Why add to the pile of trouble by making your brain glitchy?

It's about as useful as a lobotomy.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby gyougan » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:27 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:No one is at "fault" for anything, but if 90% of people using the substances are worse rather than better (in a Buddhist sense, more grasping, craving, suffering), then obviously it speaks to the lack of usefulness of the substance for most people in spiritual pursuits.

Humanity loses so much by being humanity, psychedelics don't eliminate the three poisons, and they don't pull someone out of samsara, they just cover things up so you can have fun.

It's not a prejudice, it's an opinion, and one I can explain, you can't write something off as "prejudice" just because you don't agree with it.

I've just had my experiences with attempts at "spiritual" use of drugs, and certainly known enough psychedelic users to say that literally something like 95% of the people i've known - a big number are worse off, not better in terms of suffering, to me that's pretty telling.


Because psychedelics are illegal, most "decent" people decide to stay away from them. The fact that they are illegal is what alienates many users from society. What's even worse is that the illegality can cause a lot bad trips and paranoia.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:34 pm

gyougan wrote:Because psychedelics are illegal, most "decent" people decide to stay away from them. The fact that they are illegal is what alienates many users from society. What's even worse is that the illegality can cause a lot bad trips and paranoia.





I hung out with a group of pretty much total anarchists, and have for most of my life associated with some people that aren't considered normal. Dudes would pretty much do or try anything, it wasn't the illegality that messed them up at all, it was the repeated tripping and trying to 'interpret' experiences they were chasing that messed them up. one friend ended up always thinking people were psychically invading him, so he had to wave stuff around his head to keep them at bay. Maybe they were, but either way..he was worse off, not better. I don't think it was permanent, he seems quite happy today, but obviously at the time it was not good.

Smoking pot laced with PCP in my teens luckily for me, made me think that whatever "good" effects might come of serious drug use, I didn't wanna take the risk. if you haven't ever done PCP, trust me..a bad trip is scarier than shit, i wasn't right in the head for about a year, and it brought panic attacks into my life permanently. I don't think everyone has this experience, but obviously, talk to anyone who is honest from drug culture, or that has counseled them, and you see most people do not have a good reaction at all. The trouble is everyone thinks THEY are the exceptional one that can handle it, they are usually wrong IME. I get it, and maybe if you have the right guidance and a teacher that can help you, the substances can be of use for some..the trouble is, everyone I have seen posting in the affirmative for these substances in this thread, and everyone i've seen ask about it on DW does not have such qualifications, such a teacher, or such an environment. That being the case, it's pretty obvious that the rational thing is erring on the side of caution where permanently distorting one's mind (worse than it already is) is concerned.

I'm not an anti-drug ideologue, if you have the teacher, the inclination, the substance, and the stones, go for it. The arguments about the merits of the substances themselves though, fly in the face of reason as far as basic observation of the world is concerned.

Lots of drugs cause paranoia, without any reference to illegality, that's sort of a ridiculous way of viewing cause and effect of legality.. like saying the illegality of robbing people is what makes people paranoid while doing it lol...it doesn't change the act, substance, or whatever involve, whatever one's stance on legalization of drugs.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:10 pm

Lots of drugs cause paranoia, without any reference to illegality

ALL drug abuse has fear as one of its symptoms, although it may take some time to appear. The specific kind of fear expressed depends on what the substance is. With psychedelics it is usually religious or governmental paranoia, secret societies controlling everything, or psychic "invasions". With pot it is more like social insecurity and everything is overly dramatic and overwhelming. With meth it is everything and everybody is sinister and threatening, and that they think they're being watched, etc. I've known people to think that their tennis shoes have been replaced by exact replicas and that there were microphones in them.

The fact that drugs are illegal masks the chemical origination of the fear. It gives a plausible reason for it.

This is the exact opposite of purifying your view towards Dzogchen, etc.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:53 pm

THERE ARE SECRET SOCIETIES: ILLUMINATI, maybe you get paranoid about it when you take psychedelics but you cant just blame it on psychedelics if people go crazy that there exists secret societies that control the world basically. its true.

but otherwise your insight into this matter is accurate, i can say from experience.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby montana » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:14 pm

The connection between talking about secret society conspiracies and being crazy is a deliberate misrepresentation by the media to discredit people that point out the obvious.

JFK gave a wonderful speech about a "monolithic and ruthless" secret society infiltrating the US GOV about 2 years before he was assassinated. Maybe we should all go to youtube, listen to the speech, and reconnect with reality.
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