Psychedelics

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:44 pm

A few things to contribute regarding the potential sentience of plants and the natural world and the other kinds of sentient beings that inhabit other planes within the natural world, often beyond our perception;

From Avatamsaka Sutra ;

"There are beings dwelling in space, and those who are born in and live in plants and trees.
This includes all the many species and races with their diverse bodies, shapes, appearances,
life spans, families, names, and natures. This includes their many varieties of knowledge
and views, their various desires and pleasures, their thoughts and deeds,
and their many different behaviors, clothing and diets."


"A plant, a tree, a pebble, a speck of dust—each has the Buddha nature, and each is endowed with cause and effect and with the function to manifest and the wisdom to realize its Buddha nature.” - T’ien-t’ai master Chih.



Abhiññā * = "The 6 'higher powers', or supernormal knowledge's, consist of 5 mundane (lokiya) powers attainable through the utmost perfection in mental concentration (samādhi, q.v.) and one supermundane (lokuttara) power attainable through penetrating insight (vipassanā), i.e. extinction of all cankers (āsavakkhaya; s. āsava), in other words, realization of Arahatship or Holiness. "

The 2 i think worth mentioning the 'most':

Dibba-cakkhu -divine eye
Divine ear (dibba-sota / divyaśrotra )

"Dibba-cakkhu .An extrasensory power by which one can see beings from other planes. Their voices can also be heard by those who have cultivated divyaśrotra, a similar power of the ear"


I won't back track on the other things already said thread, but i whole heartedly feel it worth pointing our that there are some plants,vines and psychoactive substances that enable one under proper guidance and intent to perceive both the sentience of that plant and/or, enable one to perceive and potentially interact with sentient beings that reside within the plant and natural realm.

Whether it is the plant and nature that is sentient, or the beings that can reside within them is something i'll try and clarify further soon but i think within a shamanic context , it is worth mentioning how symbiotic the conciousness of the natural environment and the human realm is. In most cases, the plant or medicine, is the bridge of perception between the various realms of Samsara and the bridge between human and environmental sentience.

From the book: Ayahuasca Visions by Pablo Amaringo

"Every tree, every plant, has a spirit. People may say that the plant has no mind. I tell them that
the plant is alive & conscious. A plant may not talk, but there is a spirit in it that is conscious,
that sees everything, which is the soul of the plant, its essence, what makes it alive."
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby gyougan » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:36 pm

There are many psychedelics in this world and some of them are useless, dangerous (think of weird research chemicals) and should be avoided.

But I am 100% convinced that magic mushrooms are good for (many) humans and possess real healing power. Not only do they help mentally, they have various physical benefits and that is becoming incresingly apparent to the scientific community as well. So instead of looking at these psychedelics as spiritual guides, they should be seen as medicine.

Perhaps they do not help in the Buddhist path, but just like carrots and cabbage, they are basically good for humans and shouldn't be discarded just because they don't necessarily help in the Buddhist path.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:06 pm

Vasana wrote:A few things to contribute regarding the potential sentience of plants and the natural world and the other kinds of sentient beings that inhabit other planes within the natural world, often beyond our perception;

From Avatamsaka Sutra ;

"There are beings dwelling in space, and those who are born in and live in plants and trees.
This includes all the many species and races with their diverse bodies, shapes, appearances,
life spans, families, names, and natures. This includes their many varieties of knowledge
and views, their various desires and pleasures, their thoughts and deeds,
and their many different behaviors, clothing and diets."
The key point of the quote is that plants may be inhabited by sentient beings, it doesn't say that plants ARE sentient beings.

I inhabit a house, does that make the house sentient?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Simon E. » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:15 pm

gyougan wrote:There are many psychedelics in this world and some of them are useless, dangerous (think of weird research chemicals) and should be avoided.

But I am 100% convinced that magic mushrooms are good for (many) humans and possess real healing power. Not only do they help mentally, they have various physical benefits and that is becoming incresingly apparent to the scientific community as well. So instead of looking at these psychedelics as spiritual guides, they should be seen as medicine.

Perhaps they do not help in the Buddhist path, but just like carrots and cabbage, they are basically good for humans and shouldn't be discarded just because they don't necessarily help in the Buddhist path.

Well first off I have no knee-jerk anti-drug stance..I lived through the 60's. ;) But someone much wiser than me, a great Dzogchen master, asked what was the point in creating another dream within THIS dream ?
We need to be clear about the difference between what wakes us up, and what makes the dream more fascinating.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Simon E. » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:20 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Vasana wrote:A few things to contribute regarding the potential sentience of plants and the natural world and the other kinds of sentient beings that inhabit other planes within the natural world, often beyond our perception;

From Avatamsaka Sutra ;

"There are beings dwelling in space, and those who are born in and live in plants and trees.
This includes all the many species and races with their diverse bodies, shapes, appearances,
life spans, families, names, and natures. This includes their many varieties of knowledge
and views, their various desires and pleasures, their thoughts and deeds,
and their many different behaviors, clothing and diets."
The key point of the quote is that plants may be inhabited by sentient beings, it doesn't say that plants ARE sentient beings.

I inhabit a house, does that make the house sentient?

The debate about plants and sentience is a hardy annual..there was a thread about it on our sister forum which ran for about 26 years.. :smile: As far as I know it might still be running..
Greg is right. The consensus view in all schools is that plants although obviously alive, do not possess the minimum qualities that indicate sentience.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:01 pm

Simon E. wrote: The consensus view in all schools is that plants although obviously alive, do not possess the minimum qualities that indicate sentience.

Recently I saw a document about different qualities that plants poses. They can react to a light, sound, smell, vibrations and many more. Some can even communicate with each other, when danger appears. Anyway, chemicals are psychoactive, not plants. Plants just make them. It would be interesting to know why.
And when it comes down to dream withing a dream... One molecule that substitutes a neurotransmitter can make one dream into another. That itself is a great insight into the nature and the fact that both are just dreams. Nobody knows how does it work, but if there is a world to discover and learn from, who is there to say that there is nothing to learn from it? Only somebody that knows it totally, or is terrified by it, or... a liar.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Simon E. » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:07 pm

I suspect that the person I quoted knows the subtleties of the dream states and the difference between them and being awake.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:09 pm

Simon E. wrote:I suspect that the person I quoted knows the subtleties of the dream states and the difference between them and being awake.

Still, just a suspicion.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:49 pm

oushi wrote:Anyway, chemicals are psychoactive, not plants. Plants just make them. It would be interesting to know why.
Probably for the same reason that some plants are poisonous: so that animals do not eat them.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Silent Bob » Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:21 pm

Simon E. wrote:Well first off I have no knee-jerk anti-drug stance..I lived through the 60's. ;) But someone much wiser than me, a great Dzogchen master, asked what was the point in creating another dream within THIS dream ?
We need to be clear about the difference between what wakes us up, and what makes the dream more fascinating.


I would humbly submit that ayahuasca, used in a traditional setting and under the guidance of a trained curandero, has remarkable healing properties, and is not something about which even the most accomplished lamas can speak knowledgeably. By the same token, I wouldn't ask an ordained monk about marriage problems, nor expect meaningful answers from a lama about what livelihood to pursue. Just sayin'...

Chris
Last edited by Silent Bob on Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:23 pm

Silent Bob wrote:Probably for the same reason that some plants are poisonous: so that animals do not eat them.

There are plenty of examples where animals eat plats containing psychoactive substances... for those substances.

Also, psylocybine in low doses (few mushrooms) increase the sharpness of senses. Hard to call it deterrent.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Simon E. » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:00 pm

Silent Bob wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Well first off I have no knee-jerk anti-drug stance..I lived through the 60's. ;) But someone much wiser than me, a great Dzogchen master, asked what was the point in creating another dream within THIS dream ?
We need to be clear about the difference between what wakes us up, and what makes the dream more fascinating.


I would humbly submit that ayahuasca, used in a traditional setting and under the guidance of a trained curandero, has remarkable healing properties, and is not something about which even the most accomplished lamas can speak knowledgeably. By the same token, I wouldn't ask an ordained monk about marriage problems, nor expect meaningful answers from a lama about what livelihood to pursue. Just sayin'...

Chris

I am not denying the possibility Chris. I am saying that we as individual practitioners need to be very clear what works to waken us.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Silent Bob » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:17 pm

Your point is well-taken, Simon.
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:20 pm

Chris, actually i.e Ajahn Brahm knows a great deal of marriage problems and all problems in life, the causes and the antidotes.


but i dont want to completely deny your answer since i myself have been to intensive ayahuasca retreats for many weeks in Peru and did some healing.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:35 pm

Sherab Dorj ,

i did later go on to the say that i'm aware that it might not necessarily be the plant that is sentient, but that these plants (ayauascha notably ) can induce the ability (temporary e.s.p) to see and interact with sentient forms of life that either reside within that plant , or realm of nature beyond our scope of perception. The sentient beings many can encounter on Aya of are often way beyond just self-created or self-originating visions ,although the confusion arises because often there is a combination of both perception and projection.

And oushi , while it is true that animals naturally ingest psychoactive substances around the world, the specific video you posted is highly doubtful. The jaguars probably like the Aya vine, and it may have some other properties that felines or other animals are more susceptible too than humans, but there would be no way for the cat to get the kind of effects the vine is known for by chewing the portions it would without the preparation.

It's nicely edited bit of footage, but it's a bit over-dressed in terms of what is actually happening.

Simon E. wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Well first off I have no knee-jerk anti-drug stance..I lived through the 60's. ;) But someone much wiser than me, a great Dzogchen master, asked what was the point in creating another dream within THIS dream ?
We need to be clear about the difference between what wakes us up, and what makes the dream more fascinating.


I would humbly submit that ayahuasca, used in a traditional setting and under the guidance of a trained curandero, has remarkable healing properties, and is not something about which even the most accomplished lamas can speak knowledgeably. By the same token, I wouldn't ask an ordained monk about marriage problems, nor expect meaningful answers from a lama about what livelihood to pursue. Just sayin'...

Chris

I am not denying the possibility Chris. I am saying that we as individual practitioners need to be very clear what works to waken us.


:thumbsup:
Last edited by Vasana on Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Norwegian » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:40 pm

Thread #1: "Trees are sentient beings?" -- viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14266&p=188355
Thread #2: "Plant sentient" -- viewtopic.php?f=66&t=8616&start=0

These two threads contain plenty on this issue.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:41 pm

Vasana, actually the vine is only a MAO-i inhibitor and not a psychedelics. they are the leaaves from another plant combined together that makes it strong psychedelics.

but i have seen in videos that some cats indeed take psychedelic substances but not ayahuasca.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:45 pm

KonchokZoepa, I am aware the vine is a Mao-inhibitor, and the properties of the admixtures plants used with that make it psychedleic, but many believe and say the vine does have it's own psychoactive and psychedelic properties even when it is not combined with the other admixtures. Much more subtle of course but it does still have it's own class of effects.

Thanks for those thread links too, Norwegian
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:15 pm

Vasana wrote: but there would be no way for the cat to get the kind of effects the vine is known for by chewing the portions it would without the preparation.

It doesn't have to drive the cat to 100030325 level of being high to show that psychedelic properties of some plants do not discourage animals. That was the point of my post. And frankly there is no was of telling how deep is a trip for an animal. How do you want to make the comparison if you don't know the awareness of a jaguar while he is sober? Maybe a small bit of yaga shifts him to a spirit reals. How can you tell what is "actually happening"?
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby gyougan » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:37 pm

Simon E. wrote:
gyougan wrote:There are many psychedelics in this world and some of them are useless, dangerous (think of weird research chemicals) and should be avoided.

But I am 100% convinced that magic mushrooms are good for (many) humans and possess real healing power. Not only do they help mentally, they have various physical benefits and that is becoming incresingly apparent to the scientific community as well. So instead of looking at these psychedelics as spiritual guides, they should be seen as medicine.

Perhaps they do not help in the Buddhist path, but just like carrots and cabbage, they are basically good for humans and shouldn't be discarded just because they don't necessarily help in the Buddhist path.

Well first off I have no knee-jerk anti-drug stance..I lived through the 60's. ;) But someone much wiser than me, a great Dzogchen master, asked what was the point in creating another dream within THIS dream ?
We need to be clear about the difference between what wakes us up, and what makes the dream more fascinating.


I didn't say that shrooms "wake you up" or help reach enlightenment. Nevertheless, there are many benefits from eating from them. For example, improved eyesight.

Personally, I have gained tremendously from them. Without encountering them, I would be a miserable person afraid of life.
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