Psychedelics

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:27 pm

padma norbu wrote: Supposedly, she was medically dead, though.



Medically "dead" to a Tibetan physician might not be quire the same thing as medically dead to a Western one.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:00 pm

The reason i mentioned Ayawaska and a perception of the Bardo/ astral plane is because it is known to dissolve our normal barriers of ordinary perception .Maybe i am using too many syncretic terms interchangeably without elaborating enough but i think there's a lot to be learnt from the knowledge and connection to the world ,other beings and transcendental states that ayawaska can act as a catylyst for.

I believe that the Ayawaska vine it's self is connected to a disembodied form of sentient and mostly compassionate intelligence, capable of communicating and teaching those who arrive humbly to learn from it.

Maybe this intelligence is a manifestation or emanation of something/someone else :shrug:

Rather than just having dream like visions or just hallucinating figures, 'actual' apparitions can appear of various kinds of spirits,beings and various forms of extra sensory perception occur. It's not just an overlay of hallucinations like many would assume. In some way, it actually gives you extra sensory perceptions both of the internal psyche as well your physical enviroment, which tends to look a lot more/less than physical while partaking in ceremony ( Just stating what i have observed, not whether or not such abilities/Siddhis are cause for attachment etc)

For me personally, the experience along with many other astral experiences provided a glimpse of parts/realms/states of Samsara that usually remain out of sight. This is why i have personally found them useful in experiencing a first hand look at what would or could probably take decades of meditation to experience without if that was a goal.

Maybe Bardo is a term i should use less until i'm 'qualified' to incorporate that terminology, but i would definitely propose that there are links between the other realms of Samsara and the Varying levels existant on the Astral plane ( something which may sound like a wishy-washy new-age concept, but is actually verifiable by anyone).

Psychedelics and Ayawaska can provide glimpses of many things. I think we must all be in agreement there by now. As to whether or not these glimpses are beneficial will obviously vary from person to person along with their predispositions,karmic traces and intent.

They're not for everyone , we know that. But for me, i know that in the future, when i part take in a ceremony again, i will learn things of value and benefit to myself and ultimately other beings.


I reccomend googling "pablo amaringo pdf" for a pdf with paintings and explanations from an Ayawaska Shaman.

Image

Image

Image

Arbitrary hallucinated figures or regular sentient acquaintances?

http://www.ayahuascacommunity.com/visionary-art/
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:11 pm

...there are links between the other realms of Samsara and the Varying levels existant on the Astral plane (something which may sound like a wishy-washy new-age concept, but is actually verifiable by anyone).

The traditional Tibetan presentation of samsara has 6 realms. Above our realm are the realms of demigods and gods, both with and without form. They are considered to be just as much samsara as our own. Accessing them is never seen as something to be desired, although the Pali Suttas do seem to indicate that Sakyamuni had free access.

In fact, those realms are traditionally presented as less favorable than this human realm in terms of opportunity for Dharma practice. It is only here, with all the seeming limitations we must endure, that attaining Buddhahood is seen as a viable opportunity.

'Course that's easier said than done. 111k prostrations? OMG! :bow:
Last edited by smcj on Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:23 pm

Vasana wrote:The reason i mentioned Ayawaska and a perception of the Bardo/ astral plane is because it is known to dissolve our normal barriers of ordinary perception .Maybe i am using too many syncretic terms interchangeably without elaborating enough but i think there's a lot to be learnt from the knowledge and connection to the world ,other beings and transcendental states that ayawaska can act as a catylyst for.


If you want to actually understand the Bardo I suggest you place yourself at the feet of a Dzogchen master and learn what he has to teach you. You are just engaged in a lot of intellectual speculation, and some of us have been there years before you, and actually may have some useful advice for you to follow. But it is up to you.

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby padma norbu » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:28 pm

Vasana wrote:The reason i mentioned Ayawaska and a perception of the Bardo/ astral plane is because it is known to dissolve our normal barriers of ordinary perception .Maybe i am using too many syncretic terms interchangeably without elaborating enough but i think there's a lot to be learnt from the knowledge and connection to the world ,other beings and transcendental states that ayawaska can act as a catylyst for.

I believe that the Ayawaska vine it's self is connected to a disembodied form of sentient and mostly compassionate intelligence, capable of communicating and teaching those who arrive humbly to learn from it.


Like what? What have you learned? I am genuinely curious, so get as detailed as you'd like. There are plenty of things to learn right here in ordinary human realm I know I will never learn before I die, so I'm not sure what point there is on learning things from other samsaric realms if they don't take me any further to realizing true liberation. If it's knowledge about relative circumstances, like how things are connected, I don't really think that's very important to learn. Likewise, special powers are not important to learn, which is why they always tell you to ignore attainment of siddhis.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:31 pm

i think there's a lot to be learnt from the knowledge and connection to the world ,other beings and transcendental states that ayawaska can act as a catylyst for.

If the machine elves can give you next weeks winning lotto numbers, I might get interested. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:35 pm

Yep. I do not know which realm these beings reside in, but for me, experiencing these realms as opposed to just intellectually understanding in them and placing faith into their existence without actually seeing them for myself has been helpful. It can be just as hard to believe in Samsaric realms as it can be to believe in heaven or hell. If psychelics can give you a glimpse to answer such questions and others, can;t be a definitive waste of time as you keep insisting.

If you think that the term 'being stoned' applies to the shamans too well then maybe it's time to reconsider. Many shamans dedicate their entire lives to helping sentient beings in this life time and those that have passed over. If you still want to devalue their role then so be it.

And Malcom, this is why i'm here. To learn from those of you with valuable advice and to disregard the Forum/Buddhist elitism many other people display.

Again i'll state that my views are very syncretic and i am currently here to ensure that learn how to apply compassion to every thing i think and do.

I still maintan that i think i a lot can be learnt from Shamanism in terms of the first hand experiences it can gfrant and that these shamans can learn a lot from Buddhist ideals of compassion/bodhicitta . I know neither system 'needs' the other,but with the world getting smaller, it makes sense for the wisdom keepers of the various continents of the world to share their wisdom with each other if it's genuinely for the benefit of other beings.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby padma norbu » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:37 pm

Vasana wrote:I still maintan that i think i a lot can be learnt from Shamanism in terms of the first hand experiences it can gfrant and that these shamans can learn a lot from Buddhist ideals of compassion/bodhicitta . I know neither system 'needs' the other,but with the world getting smaller, it makes sense for the wisdom keepers of the various continents of the world to share their wisdom with each other if it's genuinely for the benefit of other beings.


I'll ask again... Like what? What have you learned? I am genuinely curious, so get as detailed as you'd like. There are plenty of things to learn right here in ordinary human realm I know I will never learn before I die, so I'm not sure what point there is on learning things from other samsaric realms if they don't take me any further to realizing true liberation. If it's knowledge about relative circumstances, like how things are connected, I don't really think that's very important to learn. Likewise, special powers are not important to learn, which is why they always tell you to ignore attainment of siddhis.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:37 pm

Also; Me posting in this thread has reached a point where i'm no longer really benefiting from it, nor do i feel my words are benefiting most of those in dialogue so i'll leave you guys to it as i have invested more time in this thread than i should of which i could of been using for something more productive/beneficial.

:buddha1:
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:41 pm

Vasana wrote:
And Malcom, this is why i'm here. To learn from those of you with valuable advice and to disregard the Forum/Buddhist elitism many other people display.
.



The bardo of dharmatā itself has nothing to do with other beings -- it is a direct experience of the ultimate reality of your own state. You can also have that experience in this life, but not with drugs -- they just get in the way because they alter how you directly perceive things, they alter your sensory apparatus and nervous system. And that, from the point of view of directly experiencing your own state, is negative.

Of course, if you want to talk to plants on the other hand, well, then ayahuasca seems to have some positive qualities in that respect.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:42 pm

padma norbu, what i learnt equates to what i experienced. hours of Ego struggle followed by 'self' dissolution, followed by a return to my 'self' and clear and valuable insight regarding how i interact with my self and others in my life. The first time i had aya , i experienced profound bliss, and then i felt the profound suffering of the world. Not as an intellectual concept, but as a feeling within me.

I could elaborate more, but those were some of the key things i 'learnt' from the experiences.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby padma norbu » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:44 pm

Vasana wrote:padma norbu, what i learnt equates to what i experienced. hours of Ego struggle followed by 'self' dissolution, followed by a return to my 'self' and clear and valuable insight regarding how i interact with my self and others in my life. The first time i had aya , i experienced profound bliss, and then i felt the profound suffering of the world. Not as an intellectual concept, but as a feeling within me.

I could elaborate more, but those were some of the key things i 'learnt' from the experiences.


So, then it seems like you've learned about all there is to learn from the experience.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby wisdom » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:47 pm

padma norbu wrote:Again, I am not arguing for psychedelics, but I have to ask why make such statements? 100x stronger? Really? What kind of meter do you use to determine this?


Its just a metaphor, and indeed it is only my opinion and based on my personal beliefs and experiences. Ultimately for the most part though aside from a few very informative citations that's what this entire thread is anyways. For all we know Vasana is a Mahasiddha and already fully realized. How can we know? Drugs and experiences they provide, and mystical visions and experiences in general, are all very subjective and easily lead to confusion if we attach to them as substantial, solid things and especially if we fail to understand their purpose and meaning.

However I also obtained a special device from a Gnome called a "visio-bliss-o-meter" that allows me to accurately measure these things. Sadly, only I can see it and nobody believes me when I tell them its real. Oh well... :(

padma norbu wrote:And why would it be harder to remain non-attached if you're sober? Being sober, you don't have the chemical euphoria or cognitive distortions you have on any drugs.


What I was getting at is that if you use drugs with attachment to the visions and euphoria it provides, then when similar experiences arise while sober you *may* place undo importance on them because you've sown the karmic seeds of placing importance on things like visions or bodily sensations as realization itself, when its nothing more than a product of ones own mind and energy. This risk is further compounded by the fact that someone who is on a path of using drugs as the path is probably already a solitary practitioner with little guidance beyond these subjective visions. Therefore its very possible that their sober attempts to achieve realization, using whatever practices they decide to use (rather than doing the ones that a Guru thinks is best) may well give them some experiences on their own. The internet is rife with people who have sudden kundalini awakenings as just one example and because they lack the proper instruction and approach, suffer immensely for it. Its also full of people who do practices of all kinds without guidance while sober, start having visions, reify it all as real, and think they have some special message or whatever to deliver humanity. The western mystery tradition is a mess for this very reason. So many self proclaimed messiahs and avatars and all kinds of BS, so much madness and delusion and so little wisdom and understanding.

Ultimately though I'm just speaking from my own flawed, deluded personal experiences.

padma norbu wrote: Just sounds like a bs statement to me.


Ho! And it is!
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:50 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Vasana wrote:padma norbu, what i learnt equates to what i experienced. hours of Ego struggle followed by 'self' dissolution, followed by a return to my 'self' and clear and valuable insight regarding how i interact with my self and others in my life. The first time i had aya , i experienced profound bliss, and then i felt the profound suffering of the world. Not as an intellectual concept, but as a feeling within me.

I could elaborate more, but those were some of the key things i 'learnt' from the experiences.


So, then it seems like you've learned about all there is to learn from the experience.



The beuaty about it is that it works with you. So whether or not i am concious about the next thing i need to learn/impliment , it will present it's self.

Of course it can be much easier or harder to come to those insights through meditation ,but it truly is a medicine. Where there is obscurations, it will force you to examine them.

obscurations are persistent, and while i'm steadily working on obtaining correct view and action, sometimes these plants can be useful in pushing you to the exact places beyond the limits of your comfort zone.

Not for everyone, but certainly not a definite negative or meritless activity as many suggest. Especially if you're actually meditating during the session too.

On that note, it's time to relax and sleep.

May you all have beneficial dreams tonight and a restful sleep!
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby padma norbu » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:01 pm

Wisdom, yes I agree. I believe you are correct that someone grasping and reifying DMT experiences would do the same thing with sober experiences beyond the ordinary.

I think that is a realer danger here is being blocked from such experiences by previous attitudes and concepts derived from such psychedelic experiences. When I was studying Western Mystery Tradition, I was told drugs such as this block you and confuse you, with the possibility of making it truly impossible for you to advance any further (and this is why some people didn't think Aleister Crowley's drug-addled approach was ultimately a great idea) and I believe I have read similar things over the years from Buddhist authorities, although I can't recall precisely to be sure. But, the danger of becoming blocked by delusion is just as bad or worse than the danger of grasping at experiences. I mean, you might think you're pretty smart and got it figured out, so you could navigate without too much attachment, but what about the idea that you're blocking yourself from the ability to even have such an experience. Then, you never get a chance to even try. I think it takes a lot to undo the assumptions "learned" from psychedelics precisely because they are such powerful and "real"-seeming experiences. Fortunately, this seems to happen naturally for some who keep on trying to go further (they eventually think it's a bunch of hallucinatory bs and give it up), but a lot of people just end up confused and deluded wackjobs with one foot planted in reality and one foot planted in never-never land.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby wisdom » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:32 pm

I agree that drugs won't block further experience, at least most of them. Some of them, like crystal meth, will literally deteriorate and destroy your mind and body and nervous system, in which case attainment becomes far more difficult in this life, but I wouldn't place any ultimate limitation on anyone, regardless of the condition of their body or brain.

Mostly, I think we all just want to caution Vasana and others not to get too caught up in it, to take it lightly and not develop too much attachment to the idea of using drugs as the path. From the Buddhist point of view, drugs are limited in their use, and they are always used as skillful means, with the awareness that we are doing them for a specific purpose, and when that purpose is fulfilled, then we are done with it. Everything can be skill in means if we have the wisdom to do that, but otherwise we risk causing more problems for ourselves. Bodhicitta and a Guru are indispensable for such a path. Without at *least* strong Bodhicitta, a person is very likely to simply deteriorate in every way, bodily, energetically and mentally. Bodhicitta is spiritual armor you might say. Everyone I know who completely messed themselves up from studying esoteric subjects and using drugs without a Guru all lacked Bodhicitta as their primary focus, and they *all* ended up either completely insane or leaving all spiritual pursuits entirely. Not a single one is better off for it despite all the fancy experiences they had. I've watched no less than three friends go insane, one tried to kill himself and became horribly mentally ill, the other developed all kinds of egomania and delusions of grandeur and leaves a sea of suffering in his wake as well as being a cult leader, and the other is homeless, deranged, paranoid, and totally unreachable. They all entered their own specific kinds of personal hell.

[Edit]: Then again, maybe its just my personal karma to witness such suffering and it has no basis in reality as something that is common to people who walk that path without guidance or the right intention...
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby padma norbu » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:39 am

wisdom wrote:I agree that drugs won't block further experience, at least most of them.


I wasn't trying to say that at all. I was saying that's a dangerous possibility. The way I was in my psychedelic heyday and for perhaps a decade or more afterward, I am pretty sure I would be blocked from authentic experiences. BTW, my experience of friends with drugs is similar to your own. I haven't seen anyone get anything from it in all my years beyond the first flash of inspiration. That's why I asked Vasana to state what he has learned... because I think we all have a general idea of what that is and how far it takes you (not far, but seems huge at first, doesn't it?) I know some legitimately insane people as well and I think that's a common enough result.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:46 pm

padma norbu wrote:because I think we all have a general idea of what that is and how far it takes you (not far, but seems huge at first, doesn't it?)


A general idea is just that though.

Once again i have to emphasize that there is such a difference in perspective to these substances from a shamanic point of view and that of just your aspiring 'psychonaut'.

A shaman doesn't just ingest psychedelics (notably aya, iboga and certain Cacti), a shaman ingests the spirit / essence of that substance as a tool to communicate with Nature it's self.

We are aware of the value of learning from the sentience of the world around us, and what the shaman does is communicate with sentience that is beyond our normal capability.
IS that of any real or lasting use to many people? Probably not, but it all depends on the calibre of what is being taught,learnt and experienced.

It's a very intimate relationship where by the Guru or teacher manifests as the plants and nature it's self. There is no "how far can it take you" , more so what else can it teach you, and for what purposes.I express these views because i think they're a perspective that might seem too subjectively decorated at first, but i assure you there is value in the genuine communicating with sentience beyond our human and animal realms.

A key aspect of Ayauascha is the Icaro, or medicine song. These songs are taught to the shaman by the plants, spirits and nature it's self. How they work is anyone's guess but it's not uncommon to hear of stories of people having their asymmetry sung back into symmetry and underlying obscurations to be summoned, examined and released. Not to mention the diagnostic abilities a shaman has when in collaboration with these spirits.

I just want to make it apparent that there is vast difference between just tripping, getting high etc and actually collaborating and learning with the genuine sentience that some of these substances can provide. Of course the argument that the sentience is just an internal creation or projection will arise, and in some cases that's true, but for those who have experienced the genuine presence of "other" intelligence will know they're not just creations of your own mind but actual encounters. It's just not something as black and white as many people assume.

Saying all of that, i do strongly agree that many people are not well versed enough within their own minds and psychological make-up to gain real lasting benefit from these things and the potential for mental illness and more problems can arise. There are real world applications for these things as breakthroughs and ongoing psychedelic research is now demonstrating.

By all means we have to be mindful and cautious about these things, especially if we have seen the detrimental effects they can have on some people, but we must also be open to the possibility that used under proper guidance ,in a ceremonial ritualistic setting, with careful intent,prayer,mantra,meditation, there can be benefit and merit to the path, even if it is only a temporary vehicle for some, a medicine for others, and a guru of boundless wisdom and compassion for others.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Malcolm » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:50 pm

Vasana wrote:
By all means we have to be mindful and cautious about these things, especially if we have seen the detrimental effects they can have on some people, but we must also be open to the possibility that used under proper guidance ,in a ceremonial ritualistic setting, with careful intent,prayer,mantra,meditation, there can be benefit and merit to the path, even if it is only a temporary vehicle for some, a medicine for others, and a guru of boundless wisdom and compassion for others.


Whatever its benefits may be, the "shaman"'s path is a worldly path, and does not lead to liberation in the sense that those who follow Buddhadharma understand the term "liberation", which specifically means freedom from rebirth in samsara at its most basic level.

Actually, Beyer makes this quite clear in the beginning of his book about Ayahausceros, citing an example of a huge magical war that lead to the death of some his friends on one side at the magical hands of other of his friends on the other side.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Vasana wrote:
By all means we have to be mindful and cautious about these things, especially if we have seen the detrimental effects they can have on some people, but we must also be open to the possibility that used under proper guidance ,in a ceremonial ritualistic setting, with careful intent,prayer,mantra,meditation, there can be benefit and merit to the path, even if it is only a temporary vehicle for some, a medicine for others, and a guru of boundless wisdom and compassion for others.


Whatever its benefits may be, the "shaman"'s path is a worldly path, and does not lead to liberation in the sense that those who follow Buddhadharma understand the term "liberation", which specifically means freedom from rebirth in samsara at its most basic level.

Actually, Beyer makes this quite clear in the beginning of his book about Ayahausceros, citing an example of a huge magical war that lead to the death of some his friends on one side at the magical hands of other of his friends on the other side.


For sure. Shamans are not to be put on pedestals by any means. There are many who use these plants for their own sorcery motivated by destructive emotions, but there are equally those Ayahausceros and vegalistas that use their practice for the benefit of healing and harmony within their community and the non physical realms that connect us all.

Liberation is not really the purpose of shamanism per se, and to most of us here, the natural progression would be to assume because of that it is just a wordlly path...Which it is, but while we exist in this world, we might as well learn to connect with the actual world as such, on more than just an intellectual level, but through actually feeling it, thus cultivating compassion for this planet it's self, and not just the sentient beings that exist within it.

You don't need psychedelics or a shaman to achieve that, but those genuine altruistic shamans do a 'good' thing...even if it is a worldy path (which is also integrating more of the world and intermediary states than we can perceive )
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