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Emptiness and Nothingness

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:07 pm
by Grigoris
Topic split from here.
invisiblediamond wrote:The final analytic is nothingness.
What does this mean? :shrug:

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:01 pm
by In the bone yard
Nihilists?
Why is middle way so bad?

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:06 am
by invisiblediamond
gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:The final analytic is nothingness.
What does this mean? :shrug:
What?

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:41 am
by Grigoris
invisiblediamond wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:The final analytic is nothingness.
What does this mean? :shrug:
What?
What does "The final analytic is nothingness" mean? I don't understand what you are trying to say with this statement. I am trying to understand your statement. Do you understand what I am saying? What do I need to do to make myself clearer?

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:27 am
by shel
Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:55 am
by Adamantine
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:

Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".

As Robert Thurman puts it "there's no such thing as nothing".
It's a fantasy.

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:15 pm
by shel
Adamantine wrote:
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:

Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".
How does that clarify Gregkavarnos's apparent cluelessness?

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:54 am
by Adamantine
shel wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:

Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".
How does that clarify Gregkavarnos's apparent cluelessness?
Shel, he was confused by your statement "the final analytic is nothingness" which really is nonsensical, and my above statement should help you clarify why. If you meant to refer to emptiness, then "nothingness" is not a proper synonym.

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:32 am
by shel
Adamantine wrote:Shel, he [gregkavarnos] was confused by your statement "the final analytic is nothingness"
Uh... it wasn't my statement.
... which really is nonsensical, and my above statement should help you clarify why.
Nonsense. Nothing stands on the very same existential footing as something. Perhaps you'd care to be more specific in your existential claims.
If you meant to refer to emptiness, then "nothingness" is not a proper synonym.
Gregkavarnos only recognizes proper synonyms? Alright, thanks for explaining. :tongue:

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:45 am
by undefineable
Adamantine wrote:Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".

As Robert Thurman puts it "there's no such thing as nothing".
It's a fantasy.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Emptiness is actually everything, and has no beginning, end, center etc. it's not nothingness or the opposite of existence.
In my experience, nothingness seems a good label for the fantasy/nightmare projected by ego as a perspective in which to hide -either permanently (c.f. 'desire for non-existence') or temporarily (if 'somethingness' is still the ideal)- when its maintenance becomes problematic. This concept of an impermeable 'fuzziness' that excludes everything -perhaps triggered by the delusion that one is fundamentally conscious of nothing but being conscious- is logicaly opposed to the emptiness that 'permeates' and includes everything: If there are no inherent identities or substances making up 'things', then both the 'things' and their absence are empty and there is therefore no backdrop that might otherwise override the 'things' in an ontological sense. This means there's no ultimate way of distinguishing a 'subjective' from an 'objective'.

This might all be off-topic if not for the confusion typically generated in beginners by the mahayana emphasis on emptiness that's rightly apparent on Dharmawheel. When understood, emptiness brings you down to earth, and -I'm told- this intellectual understanding is merely the beginning _ _

Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:43 am
by lawrence
It seems reasonable to say that "nothingness is at least a concept.
Emptiness in Buddhist terms on the other hand (right or left your choice) refers to the fact that nothing is existent on it's own , you can't break something down to a final something that is a unique "it". Reality tho is all around us. No?
Gassho
Lawrence

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:03 am
by kirtu
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:
Emptiness is not nothingness.

Kirt

Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:21 am
by Johnny Dangerous
Since emptiness describes..well..everything, it's closer to everything than nothing, lol.

IIRC correctly Lankavatara says something like "things are nothing but a concatenation", that does not describe nothingness, only lack of independent existence.

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:38 am
by Punya
shel wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Shel, he [gregkavarnos] was confused by your statement "the final analytic is nothingness"
Uh... it wasn't my statement.
... which really is nonsensical, and my above statement should help you clarify why.
Nonsense. Nothing stands on the very same existential footing as something. Perhaps you'd care to be more specific in your existential claims.
If you meant to refer to emptiness, then "nothingness" is not a proper synonym.
Gregkavarnos only recognizes proper synonyms? Alright, thanks for explaining. :tongue:
It's curious that we're even having this discussion on a buddhist forum. Greg is not just being pedantic shel, they are simply not synonyms.

Perhaps a read of this thread http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=9728 will help (despite its meanderings) although I'm none the wiser as to what is considered to be wrong with Je Tsongkhapa's view of emptiness.

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:23 am
by shel
kirtu wrote:
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:
Emptiness is not nothingness.

Kirt
Try thinking of it as no-thingness. Maybe that will help? :shrug:

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:17 pm
by kirtu
shel wrote:
kirtu wrote:
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:
Emptiness is not nothingness.

Kirt
Try thinking of it as no-thingness. Maybe that will help? :shrug:
There's a big difference between no-thingness, nothingness and emptiness.

Kirt

Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:32 pm
by oushi
shel wrote:
kirtu wrote:
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:
Emptiness is not nothingness.

Kirt
Try thinking of it as no-thingness. Maybe that will help? :shrug:
That will help a lot.
There is no such thing as nothingness. Nobody ever experienced nothingness. It is a dead word.

Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:51 pm
by shel
kirtu wrote: There's a big difference between no-thingness, nothingness and emptiness.

Kirt
Alright, why don't we try no-[inherent]-thingness. Is that working for you yet? :tongue:

Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:53 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
I've never liked the term No-thingness because it seemingly implies a lack of things, and emptiness isn't lack or abundance, multiplicity or singularity of stuff, its just the mode of how things are. Then again, the term emptiness seems to get misinterpreted as some sort of nihilistic lack of existence by many non-Buddhists, and perhaps even some Buddhists. So..words fail.

Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:43 pm
by shel
Emptiness does mean the lack of an abiding self. Nihilism is about lack of meaning, quite different.