Like a dog in the forest?

Whether you're exploring Buddhism for the first time or you're already on the path, feel free to ask questions of any kind here.

Re: Like a dog in the forest?

Postby dimeo » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:30 pm

Thanks Muni, that quote led me to look more at Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche. :twothumbsup:
This 'dependently existent appearance-emptiness' is very much what I wish to find more teachings on. I liked this quote from him as well:

LIVING AN APPEARANCE-EMPTINESS LIFE

You know the supreme path that is free from coming and going,
And you teach the true nature of all phenomena,
While never leaving a single being out of your compassion’s embrace,
Great mother, noble Tara, I bow at your feet.
Since all phenomena, outer and inner, are dependently existent mere appearances,
They have no inherent nature, they are just appearance-emptiness.
If you know how they resemble dreams and illusions,
All comings and goings will be open and relaxed.
Since appearances of friends and enemies are dependently existent,
Both are appearance-emptiness, like rainbows, and if you know this,
That is called, “meditation on illusion.”
Within openness you will achieve inner peace.
A planet and a particle are equal,
An aeon and an instant are equal, the Buddha taught.
If you gain uncontrived certainty in this,
Within spaciousness, any work you do will come out alright.
When you are expert at studying your own mind
All that appears becomes your guru,
And even your enemies become friends of your Dharma practice—
E ma! What a wonderful miracle!

Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche
Verses composed for a student, June 24, 1998.
Translated by Ari Goldfield


muni wrote:
dimeo wrote:I've been struggling with getting this idea of "coemergence" and how true nature of phenomena is emptiness. I would love any tips suggestions for further study.


I have posted this in mind:

Appearance Emptiness Equality

Not to know the equality of appearance emptiness
And get attached to appearances alone is delusion
But to get attached to emptiness alone is delusion too
If you know the equality of appearance emptiness
There's no need to get caught up in or give up phenomena
Those appearances and emptiness
What you must do is to rest in the spaciousness
Of the equality of appearance emptiness
http://www.ktgrinpoche.org/quote/appear ... s-equality

By the way, when the body runs, then for sure the dog body follows. Probably in these moments the teaching of causes and conditions is very beneficially. :smile:
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Re: Like a dog in the forest?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:33 pm

shel wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
So where am I not "using words and ideas correctly"?


Do you still suffer?
Do you?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Like a dog in the forest?

Postby shel » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:28 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
So where am I not "using words and ideas correctly"?


Do you still suffer?
Do you?


Yes, but that's not very relevant to your scientific analysis, because I haven't ever practiced the Eightfold path with much diligence.

Perhaps you haven't practiced with much diligence also, and that's why you still suffer? In any case, to properly apply the scientific method you're going to have to control the variables, so you'll need to determine what degree of diligence is required to achieve the cessation of suffering. This should be simple, just find someone who has achieved the cessation of suffering and record their degree of diligence. Unfortunately this may not be adequate however, because a whole host of other variables, including environmental and genetic, effect this subjects achievement. Anyway, being a scientist and applying the scientific method to your religious practice, I'm sure you already have all this worked out and documented (for peer review). :tongue:
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Re: Like a dog in the forest?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:56 pm

The cessation of suffering does not (normally) happen all at once but by degrees. I can find a vast number of practitioners that will admit that the degree of suffering they experience has been reduced drastically by the practice of, let's say, the Noble Eightfold Path.

We can then compare their experience to that of individuals that have not practiced the Noble Eightfold Path. Granted that it will be difficult to establish a measure of "peace of mind" but there are many studies where a "happiness index" has been formulated and research applied on the basis of this formulation.

As for other variables, well, I am sure you are well aware of sociological research methods. Not at all difficult to take into account.

Actually it has become quite fashionable (in the field of psychology and psychiatry) to measure the effects of religiosity on mental well being. I was at a international seminar last year where a number of researchers presented their studies. Most of the research was done in Muslim countries. There was a fascinating study on the effect faith healing on psychiatric illnesses, from Egypt... Excuse my digression.

But hey, I am sure you are aware of all these methods and studies, right?

So your suffering is relevant to my scientific analysis, as your experience of suffering (as a non-practitioner of the Eightfold Noble Path, ie as a member of the control group) will be invaluable in order to compare it to the experience of suffering of those that do practice the Eightfold Noble Path (the subjects of the experiment). But I am sure you know how to conduct a scientific experiment in the field of social sciences, right? You have the same training as I do, correct?
:namaste:
PS I just saw you said that you are a practitioner , just not a diligent one. Well then, we may just be able to squeeze you into the subject group, instead of the control group. I guess we can have a range of variables in the subject group too.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Like a dog in the forest?

Postby shel » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:14 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The cessation of suffering does not (normally) happen all at once but by degrees. I can find a vast number of practitioners that will admit that the degree of suffering they experience has been reduced drastically by the practice of, let's say, the Noble Eightfold Path.

Oh, I thought you were applying the scientific method to your religious practice of Buddhism. In Buddhism the cessation of suffering proves the truth of the Four Noble Truths. Many many other practices, even entirely secular practices, may significantly reduce suffering.

Do you know anyone who has achieved the cessation of suffering?
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