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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:45 pm 
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The Lankavatara Sutra states...

Then Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva spoke to the Blessed One, saying: You speak of the erroneous views of the philosophers, will you please tell us of them, that we may be on our guard against them?

The Blessed One replied, saying: Mahamati, the error in these erroneous teachings that are generally held by the philosophers lies in this: they do not recognize that the objective world rises from the mind itself; they do not understand that the whole mind-system also arises from the mind itself; but depending upon these manifestations of the mind as being real they go on discriminating them, like the simple-minded ones that they are, cherishing the dualism of this and that, of being and non-being, ignorant to the fact that there is but one common Essence.

On the contrary, my teaching is based upon recognition that the objective world, like a vision, is a manifestation of the mind itself; it teaches the cessation of ignorance, desire, deed and casualty; it teaches the cessation of suffering that arises from the discriminations of the triple world.


Since for most people, the "conscious" mind focuses only on the perceptions of the local body-mind. Is this stating that the broader aspects of objective reality are components of what is commonly called the "subconscious" parts of the mind? That at deeper levels all humans have a shared subconscious?

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:57 am 
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Quote:
That at deeper levels all humans have a shared subconscious?


The subconscious is often basically the same as it is quite primitive. However it is delusional in manifestation, just as is 'normal' interpretative consciousness. It would be perhaps be better to say that Buddha Mind or 'super consciousness' is 'shared', or recognisable as the same. :namaste:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:39 am 
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"It is your mind that creates this world" Buddha.
I-thought is very busy with its dual game/fight of inner consciousness and outer consciousness on the screen of simple nature. There is no my classified space and your space.
I -thought is correcting its own created world! All objects are consciousness. Where they can be if there is no consciousness at all?

Awareness. In some teachings is said: be the mirror not the reflection. And be the sky not the cloud. I can imagine by being the sky i can see it all.

For I-thought there are real Phenomena existing on themselves. But it is not finished, they get all their colors and characteristics by I-thought. Wow. Otherways how can I love them, hate them, shoot them and so grasp them?

It is just too easy to see phenomena by my habits and not the space in which they arise. Too easy to see the clouds and not the sky. By the grace of emptiness, all is possible. Magic. Fullness of Emptiness. Ha! Very easy said. Very easy! :toilet:

Here is "the Pointing Out Instruction to the Old Lady" by Guru Rinpoche. http://www.dzogchenmeditation.com/about ... -lady.html
And then this can throw a light:
http://books.google.be/books?id=AYL0GVn ... en&f=false


:namaste:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:58 am 
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Jeff wrote:
Since for most people, the "conscious" mind focuses only on the perceptions of the local body-mind. Is this stating that the broader aspects of objective reality are components of what is commonly called the "subconscious" parts of the mind? That at deeper levels all humans have a shared subconscious?

I cannot draw such a conclusions from this scripture. We can see from it, that everything is creation of the mind, which is confirmed by modern science btw. We do not perceive the world directly, but only it's representation generated by the mind. Subconscious may be required to generate it, but where does it start or end is Impossible to know consciously.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:08 am 
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And an example that should can make my grasping I-thought jobless. May it be helpful for here on forum reading minds.

"Not to know the equality of appearance emptiness
And get attached to appearances alone is delusion
But to get attached to emptiness alone is delusion too
If you know the equality of appearance emptiness
There's no need to get caught up in or give up phenomena
Those appearances and emptiness
What you must do is to rest in the spaciousness
Of the equality of appearance emptiness". Khenpo Tsultrim Rinpoche :meditate:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:41 pm 
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Drawing a correlation between Dharmadhatu and a presentation of the modern western concept of 'the subconscious ' ( a concept which btw has only partial and disputed acceptance within the discipline from which it sprang ) is fraught with problems.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:15 pm 
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lobster wrote:
Quote:
That at deeper levels all humans have a shared subconscious?


The subconscious is often basically the same as it is quite primitive. However it is delusional in manifestation, just as is 'normal' interpretative consciousness. It would be perhaps be better to say that Buddha Mind or 'super consciousness' is 'shared', or recognisable as the same. :namaste:


Hi lobster,

Thanks for your comments. It seems we are really saying something similar, with you going sort of top down basing in the buddhamind. I was sort of trying to go bottom up, starting with "percieved" individual mind.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:21 pm 
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muni wrote:
"It is your mind that creates this world" Buddha.
I-thought is very busy with its dual game/fight of inner consciousness and outer consciousness on the screen of simple nature. There is no my classified space and your space.
I -thought is correcting its own created world! All objects are consciousness. Where they can be if there is no consciousness at all?

Awareness. In some teachings is said: be the mirror not the reflection. And be the sky not the cloud. I can imagine by being the sky i can see it all.

For I-thought there are real Phenomena existing on themselves. But it is not finished, they get all their colors and characteristics by I-thought. Wow. Otherways how can I love them, hate them, shoot them and so grasp them?

It is just too easy to see phenomena by my habits and not the space in which they arise. Too easy to see the clouds and not the sky. By the grace of emptiness, all is possible. Magic. Fullness of Emptiness. Ha! Very easy said. Very easy! :toilet:

Here is "the Pointing Out Instruction to the Old Lady" by Guru Rinpoche. http://www.dzogchenmeditation.com/about ... -lady.html
And then this can throw a light:
http://books.google.be/books?id=AYL0GVn ... en&f=false


:namaste:


Hi Muni,

I would definitely agree with your words above. I was just thinking of it in the context that as one drops obstructions, they could experience more of the "shared mind", which could explain things like the perception of astral travel.

Regards.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:26 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Since for most people, the "conscious" mind focuses only on the perceptions of the local body-mind. Is this stating that the broader aspects of objective reality are components of what is commonly called the "subconscious" parts of the mind? That at deeper levels all humans have a shared subconscious?

I cannot draw such a conclusions from this scripture. We can see from it, that everything is creation of the mind, which is confirmed by modern science btw. We do not perceive the world directly, but only it's representation generated by the mind. Subconscious may be required to generate it, but where does it start or end is Impossible to know consciously.


Hi Oushi,

Thanks. By subconscious, I really just meant aspects of mind that we are not really consciously aware of. I definitely agree that it is not really possible to know where it starts or ends, but do you think that meditation and practices can help in sort of "bringing in" components of the subconscious mind into the conscious mind?

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:27 pm 
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lobster wrote:
Quote:
That at deeper levels all humans have a shared subconscious?


The subconscious is often basically the same as it is quite primitive. However it is delusional in manifestation, just as is 'normal' interpretative consciousness. It would be perhaps be better to say that Buddha Mind or 'super consciousness' is 'shared', or recognisable as the same. :namaste:
I would say that the tahagatagarbha or sugatagarbha is shared in the same way as "cupness" is shared by a number of similar vessels.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:11 am 
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What Buddha is talking about is that the many philosophers have yet to realize the fundamental truth about phenomena, and so they still make distinguishing mental projections between "this" and "that", taking each appearance to be inherently real, having not realized emptiness, failing to experience the one taste of reality. The ultimate nature of reality is shared by everything, regardless of whether or not its possessed of a mind or not.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:40 am 
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muni wrote:
"It is your mind that creates this world" Buddha.
I-thought is very busy with its dual game/fight of inner consciousness and outer consciousness on the screen of simple nature. There is no my classified space and your space.
I -thought is correcting its own created world! All objects are consciousness. Where they can be if there is no consciousness at all?

Awareness. In some teachings is said: be the mirror not the reflection. And be the sky not the cloud. I can imagine by being the sky i can see it all.

For I-thought there are real Phenomena existing on themselves. But it is not finished, they get all their colors and characteristics by I-thought. Wow. Otherways how can I love them, hate them, shoot them and so grasp them?

It is just too easy to see phenomena by my habits and not the space in which they arise. Too easy to see the clouds and not the sky. By the grace of emptiness, all is possible. Magic. Fullness of Emptiness. Ha! Very easy said. Very easy! :toilet:

Here is "the Pointing Out Instruction to the Old Lady" by Guru Rinpoche. http://www.dzogchenmeditation.com/about ... -lady.html
And then this can throw a light:
http://books.google.be/books?id=AYL0GVn ... en&f=false


:namaste:


So if you see the real Guru Rinpoche in full "living" technicolor 3D, with eyes wide open, and pointing at your heart ---

---

Is that a Subconscious mind map to Objective Reality, or the cloud and sky seen as one?

---

Even grasping at non-grasping is a straying!

So whatever appears is OK, just as it is.

This is the big OK. You watch it and let it go (at the same time).

You mean, "Even if it is not OK - it is OK?"

Yes, it is something like that --- but not in words.

---

Now you understand "mind map," "objective reality," and ---

---

:smile:

:namaste:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:54 am 
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oldbob wrote:

So if you see the real Guru Rinpoche in full "living" technicolor 3D, with eyes wide open, and pointing at your heart ---

---

Is that a Subconscious mind map to Objective Reality, or the cloud and sky seen as one?

---

Even grasping at non-grasping is a straying!

So whatever appears is OK, just as it is.

This is the big OK. You watch it and let it go (at the same time).

You mean, "Even if it is not OK - it is OK?"

Yes, it is something like that --- but not in words.

---

Now you understand "mind map," "objective reality," and ---

---

:smile:

:namaste:


"Even grasping at non-grasping is a straying!"
Yes. A bit same I hear now as detachment is another attachment. For a detachment there is the need of 'two'(subject object).

Thank you. :anjali: :smile:

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