Stream entry

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Stream entry

Postby Doomguy93 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:08 pm

Are all of the factors for stream entry the same spanning all traditions or are they different?
The four I know of from the Nikayas is confirmed confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha and practicing the moral virtues dear to the noble ones. This last bit is tricky what does "practicing the moral virtues dear to the noble ones." mean? Is the Buddha describing the eightfold path?
Also from what I have heard from another forum some people think it is very difficult to attain stream entry, but if my interpretation of the passage is correct than practicing the eightfold path and not having doubt and going for refuge to the 3 jewels should be enough. From my understanding stream entry is the beginning of the path while stripping off the shackles of doubt. Any info or explanation would be appreciated.
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Re: Stream entry

Postby Jinzang » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:27 am

No, stream entry is a high level of attainment. There is a regrettable tendency for some Thervadins to claim they are stream enterers or even arhats, but unless someone has attained a high level of meditative stability and understanding of non-self and impermanence, this is not the case.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: Stream entry

Postby Doomguy93 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:01 am

Well than what are the specific fetters eliminated when one attains stream entry.
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Re: Stream entry

Postby plwk » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:34 am

If these are of any use... 1 2 3 4 5

One brief Mahayana perspective...
http://www2.fodian.net/world/diamond1.html
"What do you think, Subhuti? Does a Stream-Enterer think, 'I have attained the fruit of stream-entry.'?"
Subhuti replied, "No, World-Honored One. Why? Stream-Enterer means to enter the stream, but in fact there is no stream to enter. One does not enter a stream that is form, nor a stream that is sound, smell, taste, touch, or object of mind. That is what we mean when we say entering a stream."

"What do you think, Subhuti? Does a Once-Returner think, 'I have attained the fruit of Once-Returning.'?"
Subhuti replied, "No, World-Honored One. Why? Once-Returner means to go and return once more, but in truth there is no going just as there is no returning. That is what we mean when we say Once-Returner."

"What do you think, Subhuti? Does a Non-Returner think like this,'l have attained the fruit of No-Return.'?"
Subhuti replied,"No, World-Honored One. Why? No-Return means not to return to this world, but in fact there cannot be any Non-Returning. That is what we mean when we say Non-Returner."

"What do you think, Subhuti? Does an Arhat think like this, 'I have attained the fruit of Arhatship?"
Subhuti replied, "No, World-Honored One. Why? There is no separately existing thing that can be called Arhat. If an Arhat gives rise to the thought that he has attained the fruit of Arhatship, then he is still caught up in the idea of a self, a person, a living being, and a life span. World-Honored One, you have often said that I have attained the concentration of peaceful abiding and that in the community, I am the Arhat who has most transformed need and desire. World-Honored One, if I were to think that I had attained the fruit of Arhatship, you certainly would not have said that I love to dwell in the concentration of peaceful abiding."

Commentary: Chapter 9, Page 112
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Re: Stream entry

Postby Doomguy93 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:10 am

I think I understand,that these are attainments but they simply happen naturally by following the path. By realizing interdependent co-arising and non-self one attains these levels but by seeking these levels you never attain them.
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Re: Stream entry

Postby Jinzang » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:42 pm

Doomguy93 wrote:Well than what are the specific fetters eliminated when one attains stream entry.


Three fetters are eliminated: Holding to the view that there is a self, uncertainty in the truth of the dharma, and attachment to rituals. Two more are reduced: desire and ill-will. But a bare description of them hardly does the five lower fetters justice. Too many people read the sutras, fish about in their own experience when they come across a term and assume they know what it means. Often they are mistaken, which is why we have people claiming to be stream enterers, to have attained the jhanas, and so on. This is one reason why you need a good teacher, to explain the real meaning of the sutras so that you don't make this kind of mistake.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: Stream entry

Postby greentara » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:37 am

What is stream entry? Is it not a process that has a final twist? It is the person or individual making the journey that must end,
not the journey itself.
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Re: Stream entry

Postby Doomguy93 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:31 pm

Jinzang wrote:
Doomguy93 wrote:Well than what are the specific fetters eliminated when one attains stream entry.


Three fetters are eliminated: Holding to the view that there is a self, uncertainty in the truth of the dharma, and attachment to rituals. Two more are reduced: desire and ill-will. But a bare description of them hardly does the five lower fetters justice.


Thank you for clearing that up, now I see why stream entry is actually quite difficult.
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