Enlightened masters?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Sara H
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by Sara H »

shel wrote:For what it's worth, there's another topic about what a Zen master is and isn't here: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=12285

Long (14 pages to date) story short, a Zen master is someone who's had a glimpse of Buddha nature, in addition to knowing some measure of Buddhist teachings and rituals, etc. A glimpse of Buddha nature essentially means having had a kensho experience.

So for the Zen tradition, "mastery" doesn't appear to necessarily mean enlightenment. In other words, a Zen master is not necessarily enlightened. No one seems to know exactly what a Zen master has mastered.


That's not actually true. This is just a common misunderstanding of the term.

Rev. Master Jiyu-Kennett had this to say on the subject:
When I was quite young I can remember talking about
kenshōs with D. T. Suzuki in London and wondering exactly
why, since enlightenment is one and undivided, it was neces-
sary to have more than one kenshō. I remember asking him if,
since a Zen master is said to never say he is enlightened, he
knew he had a kenshō, and he assured me he did. I
also remember asking him, "Have you ever had this experience
yourself?" and he admitted that he had. Later that same year he
said openly and clearly, "Once or twice I have had the great
experience but a million times the little moments that make one
dance." Between the great kenshōs come the millions of "little
moments that make one dance" that make up the On-Going
Fūgen kenshō,—the moments that remind you, at any time you
get really down, that you have experienced the Penetration of
Heaven kenshō. I myself have experienced them many times; I
know them well. I also know that D. T. Suzuki did not mind
openly admitting that he had had kenshō experience nor did any
of the great Zen masters I met in the east. It is perfectly true that
they did not, however, say that they were enlightened. They
only admitted to having experienced kenshō. There is a great
deal of difference in saying that you have experienced kenshō
and in saying that you are enlightened; I would like to make
this point very clear. Kenshō experience, even the second type
through it's tiny moments, can be fixed, dated, in time; en-
lightenment is an on-going process, ever-flowing like a river.
You cannot hold a river within your hand but you can trail your
hand in the river. By grasping you loose all; by letting the flow
continue you possess all whilst possessing nothing. My own
master did make an announcement concerning my kenshō the
day after my Transmission Ceremony. This is quite customary
in Zen monasteries especially if the master intends to train the
person as a future teacher of Zen. I make these comments be-
cause I know there is a prevalent belief, or there was, certainly,
some years ago when I was in England, that this subject must
never, or should never, be talked about. I do not know from
whence this idea came; I certainly did not find it anywhere in
the east.
-Source: Rev. Master Jiyu-Kennett on enlightenment and kenshō, from
the introduction of How to Grow a Lotus Blossom ©1993. (2'nd Ed.)
Mt. Shasta, California. Shasta Abbey Press. All Rights Reserved




In Gassho,
Sara
Observing your mind is a good idea.
greentara
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by greentara »

There's too many teachers out there drunk on partial enlightment, Can we get awakening in increments in small doses?
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Sara H
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by Sara H »

greentara wrote:There's too many teachers out there drunk on partial enlightment, Can we get awakening in increments in small doses?
I wouldn't say that they are drunk on partial enlightenment, I would say that they are drunk on the idea that an initial experience of enlightenment is the end-all and be-all of their training. That isn't the case, and a great tragedy if they believe that, and don't allow the Wheel to continue turning.

In Gasshō,
Sara
Observing your mind is a good idea.
shel
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by shel »

greentara wrote:Shel, 'A Zen master is someone who's had a glimpse of Buddha nature' Is kensho enough to gather students around you and claim you can show them the way?
Much more than enough actually. Have you by chance seen the movie called Kumare? (http://kumaremovie.com)
A master would be permanently established in the awakened state otherwise it's the blind leading the blind.
The blind leading the blind can be a meaningful activity nonetheless. That's what actually counts.
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by shel »

Sara H wrote:
shel wrote:For what it's worth, there's another topic about what a Zen master is and isn't here: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=12285

Long (14 pages to date) story short, a Zen master is someone who's had a glimpse of Buddha nature, in addition to knowing some measure of Buddhist teachings and rituals, etc. A glimpse of Buddha nature essentially means having had a kensho experience.

So for the Zen tradition, "mastery" doesn't appear to necessarily mean enlightenment. In other words, a Zen master is not necessarily enlightened. No one seems to know exactly what a Zen master has mastered.


That's not actually true. This is just a common misunderstanding of the term.

Rev. Master Jiyu-Kennett had this to say on the subject:
When I was quite young I can remember talking about
kenshōs with D. T. Suzuki in London and wondering exactly
why, since enlightenment is one and undivided, it was neces-
sary to have more than one kenshō. I remember asking him if,
since a Zen master is said to never say he is enlightened, he
knew he had a kenshō, and he assured me he did. I
also remember asking him, "Have you ever had this experience
yourself?" and he admitted that he had. Later that same year he
said openly and clearly, "Once or twice I have had the great
experience but a million times the little moments that make one
dance." Between the great kenshōs come the millions of "little
moments that make one dance" that make up the On-Going
Fūgen kenshō,—the moments that remind you, at any time you
get really down, that you have experienced the Penetration of
Heaven kenshō. I myself have experienced them many times; I
know them well. I also know that D. T. Suzuki did not mind
openly admitting that he had had kenshō experience nor did any
of the great Zen masters I met in the east. It is perfectly true that
they did not, however, say that they were enlightened. They
only admitted to having experienced kenshō. There is a great
deal of difference in saying that you have experienced kenshō
and in saying that you are enlightened; I would like to make
this point very clear. Kenshō experience, even the second type
through it's tiny moments, can be fixed, dated, in time; en-
lightenment is an on-going process, ever-flowing like a river.
You cannot hold a river within your hand but you can trail your
hand in the river. By grasping you loose all; by letting the flow
continue you possess all whilst possessing nothing. My own
master did make an announcement concerning my kenshō the
day after my Transmission Ceremony. This is quite customary
in Zen monasteries especially if the master intends to train the
person as a future teacher of Zen. I make these comments be-
cause I know there is a prevalent belief, or there was, certainly,
some years ago when I was in England, that this subject must
never, or should never, be talked about. I do not know from
whence this idea came; I certainly did not find it anywhere in
the east.
-Source: Rev. Master Jiyu-Kennett on enlightenment and kenshō, from
the introduction of How to Grow a Lotus Blossom ©1993. (2'nd Ed.)
Mt. Shasta, California. Shasta Abbey Press. All Rights Reserved




In Gassho,
Sara
I don't follow how the Kennett quote clarifies anything.
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jikai
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by jikai »

Jikan wrote:I'm confident I've met people with real attainment.

phpBB [video]

:good: :twothumbsup: :D
"止觀明靜前代未聞"
(摩訶止觀)

"此妙法蓮花經者本地甚深之奧藏也"
( 法華玄義)

"觀心者空觀是般若假觀是解脫中觀是法身"
(法華文句)
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by Wayfarer »

Sara H wrote:
Rev Master Jiyu-Kennett wrote:I make these comments because I know there is a prevalent belief, or there was, certainly, some years ago when I was in England, that this subject must never, or should never, be talked about. I do not know from whence this idea came; I certainly did not find it anywhere in the east.
From what I recall, there was a vinaya rule against 'boasting about spiritual or meditative attainment'. Monks were supposed not to talk about such things except for with their teachers. Of course whether 'kensho' amounts to 'an attainment' is another thing altogether, but I think this is where the idea originates.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
greentara
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by greentara »

Shel, I'm aware of the Kumaremovie. What can I say Osho, Chogyamtrungpa, Adi da rolled into one. The only difference is that he came out with the truth at the end and said he was a bogus teacher. It's alarming and sad that so many people seemingly quite well educated have no discriminatory powers and are sucked in with such ease. It seems as if the teacher has the right costume, looks the part, bingo you're in business. Yogi or bhogi?
Stay alert!
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by muni »

There are Awaken Beings today to help us. Their kindness, radiant wisdom is undescridable and for all.
:buddha1:
Kris
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by Kris »

I'm an Enlightened Master...I mastered the art of lightening the load.
:jedi:
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by mandala »

Somehow i don't think whether or not they are enlightened is even the point... unless you're an arya yourself it's going to be pretty tough to know..

What is important, imo, is that after you've thoroughly checked out a teacher and have some conviction that they have the skills and qualities you want to develop, that you consider them AS a Buddha.
It's said that your teacher is even more precious than the Buddha because they are here in person to help you understand the dharma and the Buddha is not.
The main benefit being if you see them as a holy being, you get the blessings of a holy being. If you see your teacher as a schmuck..well.. this enlightenment thing could take a while... :tongue:
shel
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by shel »

mandala wrote:If you see your teacher as a schmuck..well.. this enlightenment thing could take a while... :tongue:
... and if you don't see your teacher as a schmuck it will still take a while. :cheers:
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by oushi »

If we take this "Enlightened master" thing apart, we will see that it all comes down to enlightenment. There cannot be a master of extinction of suffering that is not enlightened, otherwise what kind of master is he? The term master can be discarded in Buddhist context, as it doesn't bring anything. With light hand we can dismiss all people entitling themselves (or being entitled) a master, while not being enlightened. Ofc, the problem will arise (or rather arisen) what does enlightenment mean. So, we and up with tens of dozens interpretations spreading from "there is no enlightenment" to "practice is enlightenment". That is how people pretending to be masters, make their life easier, reverse engineering enlightenment.
Say what you think about me here.
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by mandala »

shel wrote:
mandala wrote:If you see your teacher as a schmuck..well.. this enlightenment thing could take a while... :tongue:
... and if you don't see your teacher as a schmuck it will still take a while. :cheers:
ha, touche! :thumbsup:
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Sara H
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by Sara H »

jeeprs wrote:
Sara H wrote:
Rev Master Jiyu-Kennett wrote:I make these comments because I know there is a prevalent belief, or there was, certainly, some years ago when I was in England, that this subject must never, or should never, be talked about. I do not know from whence this idea came; I certainly did not find it anywhere in the east.
From what I recall, there was a vinaya rule against 'boasting about spiritual or meditative attainment'. Monks were supposed not to talk about such things except for with their teachers. Of course whether 'kensho' amounts to 'an attainment' is another thing altogether, but I think this is where the idea originates.
Discussing kensho is not the same as bragging about it.

Using it in the context of teaching, to help better explain what it is, and that it is normal to experience spiritual experiences, is not at all the same as saying "look at me! See how great I am!"
For instance, the context of that quote, was an introduction to an entire book discussing kensho from a teaching perspective.

It's not possible to effectively teach about these things without discussing them directly, nor would it be desireble to do so, as one would just be "beating arround the bush" and thus creating more potential confusion about an already often misunderstood subject.

It's important to speak clearly, and directly on these things, and also include one's own experience on this, to show that it's less scary than it sometimes seems, or less of a novelty.

These things are actually not that uncommon at all, and so talking about them helps to further explain what they are, and also to demystify them.

People who've had no formal prior Buddhist training and experience can have these things come up with the first time of their sitting, so it's very important to let people know beforehand, that if they do, they are not crazy, and that there is someone they can speak with if they feel the need.

Speaking about kensho is very important.

In Gasshō,
Sara H.
Observing your mind is a good idea.
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by DGA »

This discussion around kensho is an important one, particularly in the context of Sara's last post. Important enough that it deserves its own thread. So:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=12542

please continue the discussion on the relative merits and/or demerits of discussing kensho in public at the thread linked above. This thread is on the topic of contemporary masters who DW users feel may have the qualities of realization/enlightenment/&c.

Thanks!

--the moderator
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Sara H
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by Sara H »

Jikan wrote:I'm confident I've met people with real attainment.
I'm not exactly sure that...
making myself walk more than 80 kilometers per day
while getting only 2 hours of sleep per night, and then walking for an additional 17 hours,
for 3 and 1/2 months, while eating just a daily rice ball and a bowl of noodles,
for 100 days, in homemade straw sandals that will leave my feet broken, bruised, and blistered,
And then, in addition to this if this were not bad enough, in the fifth year of doing this, doing an ordeal where I must go nine days where I cannot eat, drink, or sleep; with monks on either side of me, to keep me awake, and then during this entire activity I have a good chance of dying from sheer exhaustion, and then if I don't die, but fail to complete it, I must kill myself with a rope or knife I carry for ritual disembowelment, or hang myself, ...

...Is a sign of enlightenment.

I posted a thread on this topic here:
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... ead#unread
Observing your mind is a good idea.
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by DGA »

Sara H wrote:
Jikan wrote:I'm confident I've met people with real attainment.
I'm not exactly sure that...
making myself walk more than 80 kilometers per day
while getting only 2 hours of sleep per night, and then walking for an additional 17 hours,
for 3 and 1/2 months, while eating just a daily rice ball and a bowl of noodles,
for 100 days, in homemade straw sandals that will leave my feet broken, bruised, and blistered,
And then, in addition to this if this were not bad enough, in the fifth year of doing this, doing an ordeal where I must go nine days where I cannot eat, drink, or sleep; with monks on either side of me, to keep me awake, and then during this entire activity I have a good chance of dying from sheer exhaustion, and then if I don't die, but fail to complete it, I must kill myself with a rope or knife I carry for ritual disembowelment, or hang myself, ...

...Is a sign of enlightenment.

I posted a thread on this topic here:
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... ead#unread
You are describing, in your own words, a kind of practice (bracketing the question of the accuracy or inaccuracy of your description). When did I say that the kind of practice you describe corresponds to a sign of realization?

You won't have an answer for that, because I did not make such a claim.

Here's my point: I have met masters who, to my poor head, show real signs of attainment. Among these are Tendai priests who have accomplished the kaihogyo (this is why I linked the Marathon Monks video). One of theseis among the happiest, most blissed-out and content individuals I have ever encountered, truly radiant, kind, open, humble.

If anyone would like to discuss the kaihogyo practice specifically, please do so in the thread Sara started on this subject.

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 45&start=0

:focus:
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Sara H
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by Sara H »

Jikan wrote:
You are describing, in your own words, a kind of practice (bracketing the question of the accuracy or inaccuracy of your description). When did I say that the kind of practice you describe corresponds to a sign of realization?

... because I did not make such a claim.
You said
Jikan wrote:I'm confident I've met people with real attainment.
And then posted a video directly following that to support that statement of having met people with "real attainment."

In that video, what I described above, is exactly what is described therein, some of it nearly perfectly paraphrased.

So such a claim was directly implied.

Although perhaps you are not as familiar with the content of the video as you thought?

In Gassho,

Sara H.
Observing your mind is a good idea.
DGA
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Post by DGA »

Sara,

I left it open to inference. I explained what I meant by my first post in this thread with a subsequent one. I assume I am in an adequate position to describe my own experiences and views.

I recognize that in leaving the relation between the content of the video (which describes a beautiful, inspiring, and effective practice) open to inference, I left it open to incompetent inferences. I regret I made this opportunity open to you. I do think my subsequent post clarifies my meaning adequately for the purposes of any reasonable person.

I stand by my observation that the kaihogyo masters I have met do indeed demonstrate bodhisattva qualities, even if you disapprove of the form their practice takes.

Do you have anything else to add to the topic at hand?
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