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Is becoming expainable? - Dhamma Wheel

Is becoming expainable?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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polarbear101
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Is becoming expainable?

Postby polarbear101 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:38 pm

From what little I've gathered, it would seem that dependent origination or co-arising is the cornerstone to the Buddha's teaching of a self-sustaining cycle. Now I know that if one rejects craving that it breaks this cycle since craving leads to clinging... but then... what is becoming?

Becoming:The process of coming to be something or of passing into a state

since becoming is just a transitory word, since it basically means turning into then clinging turns into birth... Now I'm confused. To further confound me, my holy grail of online buddhist knowledge, access to insight, says that the Buddha never defined becoming. He just used metaphors (or something like that). For me, in plain english, it seems strange to associate a mental phenomena to a transitory state whereby physical manifestation occurs. I would be supremely impressed if anything concise could be said on this subject. Mind you I'm not speaking of the moment to moment dependent origination where clinging leads to the birth of thoughts in a causal chain, rather I'm asking is there any logical way of explaining how clinging in a living body allows for becoming in no body which conditions birth in new body, if that makes any sense since there would have to be some transitory state whereby whatever it is that leads to rebirth does so and the only thing that could do that is becoming?

So is becoming even explainable or is it not conjecturable because this is the only confusing link in the chain of dependent origination as far as I can tell?

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does birth come?' one should say, 'Birth comes from becoming as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for becoming?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does becoming come?' one should say, 'Becoming comes from clinging as its requisite condition.'


Thanks!
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

Virgo
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Re: Is becoming expainable?

Postby Virgo » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:41 pm

If you really want to understand becoming, you should study Abhidhamma so that you understand exactly what actually comes into being, and by what conditions it does so.

Kevin


santa100
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Re: Is becoming expainable?

Postby santa100 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:48 pm

Ven. Thanissaro's essay below might be helpful..
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... coming.pdf

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polarbear101
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Re: Is becoming expainable?

Postby polarbear101 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:55 pm

woah, I have some reading ahead of me I guess. Thanks
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Zom
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Re: Is becoming expainable?

Postby Zom » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:11 pm

Becoming is bhava (Ven. Bodhi prefers another word for it - "existence").
Buddha explains "bhava" as threefold - in sensual realm, in form realm, in formless realm.
It is also known, that desire for sensuality keeps you in sensual realm, desire for jhanas keeps you in form realm, desire for arupa-spheres keeps you in formless realm. So, as it seems, bhava may be that kind of kamma, that directs you to this or that realm, that is, intention to "be", to "exist" somewhere (in one of these 3 realms). So this is that force that drives you to this or that kind of rebirth. So we see in paticca-samuppada this link: bhava > birth.

There is an interesting thought (sarvastivadins could agree with that while theravadins would not) that bhava is an existence after death but before birth (in a case that birth doesn't occur immidiately after death). So after you die, you exist (bhava) in one of three realms, and in some period of time you are dragged into a birth in a certain sub-world of this or that realm. But I will mark it again, that this is not a classical theravadin idea ,) Though it has some support in suttas
Last edited by Zom on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SDC
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Re: Is becoming expainable?

Postby SDC » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:19 pm

Are we talking the three life model of PS, or the non-temporal explanation? That is where you are going to get into varying opinions of bhava.

For me, I was never able to make anything of bhava translated as “becoming”. Becoming denotes change.

I have had a very good understanding of Venerable Punnaji's and others translating bhava as "being" or “existence”, which denotes the idea of an existence (of a self).

The paticca samuppada is an explanation of how suffering arises, of the mistakes that take place and give rise to suffering – “Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering”, is the last line in the suttas about the PS. Becoming does not help explain this as far as I am concerned and actually denotes the idea of impermanence and constant change. “Becoming” is actually a more accurate way to explain things and does not lead to a wrong view such as the idea of a self.

Just my 2 pennies.

Sarva
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Re: Is becoming expainable?

Postby Sarva » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:07 pm

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

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SDC
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Re: Is becoming expainable?

Postby SDC » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:21 pm


Sarva
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Re: Is becoming expainable?

Postby Sarva » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:43 pm

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

paarsurrey
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Re: Is becoming expainable?

Postby paarsurrey » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:44 pm

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/


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