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Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla? - Dhamma Wheel

Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby danieLion » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:08 pm

In his lecture on the Ambalaṭṭhikārāhulovāda Sutta (MN 61) to be found at

http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic- ... ikaya.html

and starting around the 10:30 minute mark and ending around the 19:00 minute mark, Ven. Bodhi discusses the actual complexity of most moral choices, and the reality that sīla is not always cut and dry.

My hope in this topic is to extend the discussion from where this lecture left off.

In your experience, do the "parameters" of sīla (as presented in the Suttas) always give you clear-cut guidance, or do you often struggle with ambiguity in ethical decisions using sīla as a guide?

Goodwill
Daniel

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:11 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby danieLion » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:14 pm


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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:19 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby Virgo » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:42 pm

Edit I will post later.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:44 pm

Hi Daniel,

I'll listen to it later but perhaps you could say what some of the issues are that were raised?

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby danieLion » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:03 am


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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:06 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby danieLion » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:24 am


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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby danieLion » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:26 am


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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:52 am


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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:00 am

I am fully agree with Bhikku Bodhi.

It is true there is no clear cut in sila. If there is a clear cut, it is against the highest Buddhist teaching of Anatta.

For practitioner like us, sila is important, because we still subject to sense of self. As long as there is this sense of self, we are subject to good and bad karma.

Buddha is free from karma because he doesn't have the notion of self at all. In this case, whatever he does, he is not subjected to karma.

Karma just mean action. If we give Buddhist teaching, there is a good karma, because we still have the sense of self. Doing the same thing, this action doesn't give rise good karma to Buddha.

When there is no self, there is no karma. Just because there is no actor, we cannot have the action.

We can slay the sky, but the sky will not get hurt.

Even when the Buddha kill someone, he will not be subjected to bad karma.

The difference is for us that action looks like killing. But from Buddha eyes, that action is not killing. Just like the mountain eruption is considered natural disaster from human eyes, but from the eyes of nature, it is not a disaster.

Only someone who is absoluty free from the notion of self, he is beyond the touch of karma. For him there is no longer boundary and clear cut in sila.

However, it is warned that as long as we still have the notion of self, sila is the only guide to keep us in track.

Sila is not the rule that put us in the jail. Sila is the guide that bring us beyond the sila.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:10 am

Last edited by Dan74 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby Vepacitta » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:11 am

Well, that link didn't lead to the discussion in question. However, I have taken Bhante's class and this discussion has come up - about how Sila isn't always cut and dried. Believe me, Bhante wouldn't have an issue about lying to Nazi's about hiding Jews. He has also spoken and I wish I knew the link at BAUS.ORG because all of our classes are taped - this was quite awhile ago - when Bhante said some of these things would be difficult for him to follow - despite the teachings. He'd have a hard time doing nothing while someone was getting the snot kicked out of them - by way of example. However, Bhante will also note that one can defend oneself or others without hurting someone else.

There is a lot of back forth in our class about using one's own horse sense - yeh - most of those comments are from me, of course (insert Asura icon).

You should have heard him speak about eco-buddhism and capitalists - Bhante is a very kindly person - but not mealy mouthed by any means.

V.
I'm your friendly, neighbourhood Asura

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby danieLion » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:16 am


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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:18 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby danieLion » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:25 am


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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby Vepacitta » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:27 am

Daniel - I"m not so hot at linking here - but if you go to BAUS.org, then Chuang Yen Monastery - follow the link to Bikkhu Bodhi - his classes are definately there and you mahy find his 2010 Eco Buddhism talk there - I helped to promote it and set up the hall, but I can't remember if it was recorded or taped - but his stuff usually is.

Retro - Bhante's Facebook page isn't managed by Bhante - I'm not sure who does it as a matter of fact. I guess you don't care for Ven Bodhi and that's ok - but if someone else wants links to his stuff - I will give it - although I stink at linking- but I will help them search. His teachings are not only informative and eye-opening - he has an open-ness that one doesn't find very often in religious teachers - you can disssent and bring up 'unpopular' questions in his class - and it's 'ok' - you can actually discuss it - and not get shut down. This is a rarity in a religious teacher - there are no sacred cows in his class.

From the fierce spirits on Mt. Meru,

V.
I'm your friendly, neighbourhood Asura

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:35 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi Equivocating on Sīla?

Postby Ferox » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:37 am

-just one more being treading the ancient path of Dhamma-


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