Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Whether you're exploring Buddhism for the first time or you're already on the path, feel free to ask questions of any kind here.

Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Matticus » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:17 am

The only Master that I had heard confirmed as enlightened was Master Nan Huai Chin, and unfortunately he has passed away recently. I've read that we are in the down slope of enlightenment, the declining age of the Dharma. The tradition of having these masters around seems to be pretty crucial to much of the Bhuddist teachings but Taoist and Hindu teachings as well, to help people stray away from incorrect practice along the path. I'm woefully unknowledgeable about these subjects in general as it is. Are there any remaining Enlightened Masters that we have current information on?
Matticus
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:28 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:17 am

"Confirmed" is a complicated concept.
"Enlightened" is a vague term.
My own teachers are confirmed enlightened masters.
Confirmed by me.
But I am not enlightened.
There are many Tibetan lamas who are recognized as enlightened beings by other Tibetan lamas.
And even then, there is sometimes disagreement.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
 
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Matticus » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:42 am

Well, quoting Master Nan Huai Chin, "In truth, Shakyamuni Buddha awakened to inherently empty interdependent origination." Other people have said that an Enlightened person has seen into his "True Nature". Wikipedia says after Buddha attained "Awakening" he attained 3 knowledges.

1.Insight in his past lives
2.Insight in the workings of Karma and Reincarnation
3.Insight in the Four Noble Truths

I have nearly no idea what that really means. In the end I suppose I'm using the term Enlightenment as a description for the attainment of the final goal that an Individual can realize and attain in Buddhism, Taoism, or Hinduism or any other spiritual school. Somebody that has realized those 3 knowledges maybe? If you agree or disagree PadmaVonSamba or anyone else reading this, what would you consider your teachers enlightened to?
Matticus
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:28 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby ground » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:50 am

Matticus wrote:Are there any remaining Enlightened Masters that we have current information on?

How about you? :sage:
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Matticus » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:34 am

Though I recognize and believe in everyone's inherent ability to attain these things, I am not at that level. Much more meditation work to do. In between the cultivation work, I think about ways to further my progress. It's why I'm bringing my questions to the super-electronic metaphysical fiber- optic grapevine known as the internet :D!
Matticus
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:28 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:24 am

From what i've heard, no one can afford the licensing these days.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby ground » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:45 am

Matticus wrote:Though I recognize and believe in everyone's inherent ability to attain these things, I am not at that level. Much more meditation work to do. In between the cultivation work, I think about ways to further my progress. It's why I'm bringing my questions to the super-electronic metaphysical fiber- optic grapevine known as the internet :D!


Ha! Recognized! :sage:
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Matticus » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:07 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:From what i've heard, no one can afford the licensing these days.


Not entirely sure I understand. If it's a joke I don't get it, full of Christmas Turkey and more than a bit tired atm. Maybe I'll get it tomorrow?

ground wrote:
Matticus wrote:Though I recognize and believe in everyone's inherent ability to attain these things, I am not at that level. Much more meditation work to do. In between the cultivation work, I think about ways to further my progress. It's why I'm bringing my questions to the super-electronic metaphysical fiber- optic grapevine known as the internet :D!


Ha! Recognized! :sage:


Mmkay.. I was hoping to gleam some names from this discussion, or something along those lines I guess? I'm trying to keep the "Chan Riddles" to a minimum here, if thats even what that just was. OYA! :sage: for some reason!
Matticus
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:28 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:23 pm

I think there are a lot of teachers out there who are qualified to bring others to what is my understanding of realization:
perfect cessation of the causes of confused mind which cause suffering

---perfect cessation meaning total removal, as in removing the roots of a weed so that the weed cannot grow back, and no further seeds from that weed can be planted.

---cause suffering can refer to an immediate state, or rebirth in lower realm or whatever you think it means.

---bring others means having not only attained realization for oneself, but also has the ability, or power through wisdom and skillful means to actually liberate others as well, just as a strong person can actually lift a sinking person into a lifeboat (provided that person wants to get in).

There are many such people, more that we usually hear about. They are not always publicly recognized by their peers.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
 
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Yudron » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:19 pm

For me the question "What is Enlightenment?" is one of the fundamental tools on the path. By that I mean, always having that question humming in the background has been good for me. Matticus, there are lots of technical definitions of enlightenment, or Buddhahood. In Tibetan, the word that is loosely translates as "enlightenment" is literally "awakening." But, the lamas who speak English generally love our word enlightenment.

Whether this enlightenment is far away and attainable only after aeons of difficult practice, or right here, are concepts that are espoused by the various Buddhist schools. I prefer to live with it as a daily open question. But, yes, my teachers are all enlightened--or else why would I have them as teachers?


Matticus wrote:Well, quoting Master Nan Huai Chin, "In truth, Shakyamuni Buddha awakened to inherently empty interdependent origination." Other people have said that an Enlightened person has seen into his "True Nature". Wikipedia says after Buddha attained "Awakening" he attained 3 knowledges.

1.Insight in his past lives
2.Insight in the workings of Karma and Reincarnation
3.Insight in the Four Noble Truths

I have nearly no idea what that really means. In the end I suppose I'm using the term Enlightenment as a description for the attainment of the final goal that an Individual can realize and attain in Buddhism, Taoism, or Hinduism or any other spiritual school. Somebody that has realized those 3 knowledges maybe? If you agree or disagree PadmaVonSamba or anyone else reading this, what would you consider your teachers enlightened to?
Yudron
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby songhill » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:52 pm

Awakening is awakening to the Dharma.

"The dharma obtained by me is profound, of deep splendor, difficult to see, difficult to understand, incomprehensible, having the incomprehensible as its scope, fine, subtle, the sense of which can only be understood by the wise" Catu.spari.sat Sûtra trans. Ria Kloppenborg).


The dharma meant here is pure Mind. The Buddha also said:

"This dharma will not be understood by those who are possessed by the passion for existence" (ibid).
User avatar
songhill
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:23 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Matticus » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:25 pm

Please correct me if I'm wrong, it is strictly my belief that cultivation is a Spiritual Science that belongs to many, MANY religions. It seems like there is a VAST amount of well written and descriptive vocabulary on the subject of measuring spiritual attainment. Chakras, skandas, siddhas, streams, Buddha, jing, chi, shen, Immortals, Ahrats, and INCLUDING Enlightenment. These names, titles, and terminology seem to me to describe methods for gauging, measuring, quantifying or describing an individuals progress and success on their path. Thousands of sources describe countless methods for attaining these accomplishements. In the end, for me we humans start from A, and un-enlightened person to B, and Enlightened person who has seen the Tao, realized the path, Attained the Dharma, escaped from the cycle of birth and death, Realized Brahma, become one with God. So for me when I ask if somebody is Enlightened it seems pretty cut and dry as to what that means.

Along these lines, when I asked if anyone knew of trully confirmed and Enlightened individuals, it was a simple question. This is mearly my feeble attempt to describe what I meant by the thread topic. I'm testing my good karma by beginning the search for an Enlightened Teacher. I probably should've just mentioned this from the get go, I created the thread when I was dead tired. I'm from a part of America, specifically Nebraska, where these teachings aren't discouraged in any way, but neither are they really common place. I'm a giant skeptic as well, lifes pretty darn short and I don't want to waste my time! So the task of finding an individual who generally speaking, doesn't advertise is made all the more difficult. Whats also really tragic is that my area of Nebraska was once known for it's powerfull Medicine Men! Anyone know of a willing genuine teacher in the vacinity of the United States? Or at-least a good cave to go poking around looking for a hermit.
Matticus
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:28 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:36 pm

Matticus wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong, it is strictly my belief that cultivation is a Spiritual Science that belongs to many, MANY religions. It seems like there is a VAST amount of well written and descriptive vocabulary on the subject of measuring spiritual attainment. Chakras, skandas, siddhas, streams, Buddha, jing, chi, shen, Immortals, Ahrats, and INCLUDING Enlightenment. These names, titles, and terminology seem to me to describe methods for gauging, measuring, quantifying or describing an individuals progress and success on their path. Thousands of sources describe countless methods for attaining these accomplishements. In the end, for me we humans start from A, and un-enlightened person to B, and Enlightened person who has seen the Tao, realized the path, Attained the Dharma, escaped from the cycle of birth and death, Realized Brahma, become one with God. So for me when I ask if somebody is Enlightened it seems pretty cut and dry as to what that means.

Along these lines, when I asked if anyone knew of trully confirmed and Enlightened individuals, it was a simple question. This is mearly my feeble attempt to describe what I meant by the thread topic. I'm testing my good karma by beginning the search for an Enlightened Teacher. I probably should've just mentioned this from the get go, I created the thread when I was dead tired. I'm from a part of America, specifically Nebraska, where these teachings aren't discouraged in any way, but neither are they really common place. I'm a giant skeptic as well, lifes pretty darn short and I don't want to waste my time! So the task of finding an individual who generally speaking, doesn't advertise is made all the more difficult. Whats also really tragic is that my area of Nebraska was once known for it's powerfull Medicine Men! Anyone know of a willing genuine teacher in the vacinity of the United States? Or at-least a good cave to go poking around looking for a hermit.



If it's cut and dried, why do you even need to ask?

Further, if it's that cut and dried, why would there be disagreement among the religions you mention (which there is - even withing one religion) as to what constitutes enlightenment?

A simple question it is not, it's akin to asking a bunch of Theists who is confirmed as the infallible word of God, you probably shouldn't expect a black or white answer.

Why don't you just find a good teacher of a tradition and go from there? Surely looking around for someone who claims they are enlightened will turn up as many frauds as it will real teachers, if not more.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Matticus » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:45 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Matticus wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong, it is strictly my belief that cultivation is a Spiritual Science that belongs to many, MANY religions. It seems like there is a VAST amount of well written and descriptive vocabulary on the subject of measuring spiritual attainment. Chakras, skandas, siddhas, streams, Buddha, jing, chi, shen, Immortals, Ahrats, and INCLUDING Enlightenment. These names, titles, and terminology seem to me to describe methods for gauging, measuring, quantifying or describing an individuals progress and success on their path. Thousands of sources describe countless methods for attaining these accomplishements. In the end, for me we humans start from A, and un-enlightened person to B, and Enlightened person who has seen the Tao, realized the path, Attained the Dharma, escaped from the cycle of birth and death, Realized Brahma, become one with God. So for me when I ask if somebody is Enlightened it seems pretty cut and dry as to what that means.

Along these lines, when I asked if anyone knew of trully confirmed and Enlightened individuals, it was a simple question. This is mearly my feeble attempt to describe what I meant by the thread topic. I'm testing my good karma by beginning the search for an Enlightened Teacher. I probably should've just mentioned this from the get go, I created the thread when I was dead tired. I'm from a part of America, specifically Nebraska, where these teachings aren't discouraged in any way, but neither are they really common place. I'm a giant skeptic as well, lifes pretty darn short and I don't want to waste my time! So the task of finding an individual who generally speaking, doesn't advertise is made all the more difficult. Whats also really tragic is that my area of Nebraska was once known for it's powerfull Medicine Men! Anyone know of a willing genuine teacher in the vacinity of the United States? Or at-least a good cave to go poking around looking for a hermit.



If it's cut and dried, why do you even need to ask?

Further, if it's that cut and dried, why would there be disagreement among the religions you mention (which there is) as to what constitutes enlightenment?


I'm not sure what you mean, I'm asking because I don't know anyone thats Enlightened. Also people disagree on a lot of things, and in the case of Master Nan Huai Chin, I've heard that the Taosists, and Buddhist schools all took a break from arguing and agreed on his achievement at succeeding in the path. If it's true he's sounding more and more like an exceedingly rare individual. I'm not really trying to argue though...
Matticus
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:28 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:46 am

Not trying to argue or be divisive man, I just figure that it's a task of questionable do-ability to go search out a "fully enlightened" master, instead of just finding a Sangha with a reputable, acknowledged teacher with some degree of realization - which certainly exist to larger degrees than "fully enlightened" masters, I assume.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:26 am

Matticus wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong....In the end, for me we humans start from A, and un-enlightened person to B, and Enlightened person who has seen the Tao, realized the path, Attained the Dharma, escaped from the cycle of birth and death, Realized Brahma, become one with God. So for me when I ask if somebody is Enlightened it seems pretty cut and dry as to what that means.

Along these lines, when I asked if anyone knew of trully confirmed and Enlightened individuals, it was a simple question.


I am not sure the sort of step-by-step structure you propose is exactly what happens.
It's not exactly like medical school.
But it is important to know what you meant.

None of the fully enlightened teachers that I know will admit that they know anything.
If somebody tells you they are enlightened, turn around and walk the other way.

Is there a type of Buddhism (Zen, Tibetan, etc.) that you feel a little bit drawn to?
That might help.
Just because a teacher is enlightened doesn't mean you will feel any connection
or even relate to what they are teaching you. So, as with shoes, a good fit is important.
Even a perfect pair of shoes are no good if they don't fit you.
I am sure most people here who have good teachers
would like to tell you that their teacher is just who you should go and see.
If you ask people to send you a private message with their recommendations
I think you might get a few good replies.
And I imagine quite a few of those teachers are enlightened.
Enlightenment isn't as far away as one might think.
It's actually inside everybody.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
 
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby uan » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:31 am

Matticus wrote:The only Master that I had heard confirmed as enlightened was Master Nan Huai Chin, and unfortunately he has passed away recently. I've read that we are in the down slope of enlightenment, the declining age of the Dharma. The tradition of having these masters around seems to be pretty crucial to much of the Bhuddist teachings but Taoist and Hindu teachings as well, to help people stray away from incorrect practice along the path. I'm woefully unknowledgeable about these subjects in general as it is. Are there any remaining Enlightened Masters that we have current information on?



For one, many feel that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is an enlightened master. I know Malcolm/Namdrol, who is probably one of the most knowledgeable people on the forums here, felt that way and I'm personally inclined to believe him. From my understanding, Malcolm's no longer posting.

I'd recommend searching the forums here -- you should come up with a few threads where people talk about certain masters who may be enlightened. But it's a hard thing to really know, and to separate out fact from anecdote from those putting forth someone from their respective lineage, etc. At the end of the day, you need to use your own judgement and trust your own instincts who to believe. But you can be pointed in potential directions for further exploration.

I'm surprised no one's really put forth a few names for your consideration.
uan
 
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:58 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Astus » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:23 pm

Within Buddhism the English word "enlightenment" can mean several things, depending on context and tradition. Outside of Buddhism it is even more complicated, and just because there is one word used it does not mean that it has the same meaning.

Since it seems to me that you are new to Buddhism, I recommend you start here: The Path to Freedom: A Self-guided Tour of the Buddha's Teachings. This covers the basics. Once finished you can go to other topics, like the different Indian schools and how Buddhism developed in other cultures throughout Asia.

There are many teachers within Buddhism who can teach people the path to enlightenment. If there were none or just a few, Buddhism would be already dead or dying. Fortunately the Buddha's teaching and the Buddhist community is well and alive. And you are free to choose from the many available resources it has.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4125
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:08 pm

uan wrote: I'd recommend searching the forums here -- you should come up with a few threads where people talk about certain masters who may be enlightened.


There may be others like me who, out of respect for their teachers, do not announce them on web forums, but who will be happy to discuss them privately.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
 
Posts: 2799
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Remaining confirmed Enlightened Masters.

Postby Matticus » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:53 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
uan wrote: I'd recommend searching the forums here -- you should come up with a few threads where people talk about certain masters who may be enlightened.


There may be others like me who, out of respect for their teachers, do not announce them on web forums, but who will be happy to discuss them privately.
.
.
.


I can absolutly understand and appreciate this point of view, I think I'd be the same way to be honest. I hadn't thought about that when I started the thread.

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Not trying to argue or be divisive man, I just figure that it's a task of questionable do-ability to go search out a "fully enlightened" master, instead of just finding a Sangha with a reputable, acknowledged teacher with some degree of realization - which certainly exist to larger degrees than "fully enlightened" masters, I assume.


Also, this makes a lot of sense as well.
Matticus
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:28 am

Next

Return to Exploring Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

>