Karma and rebirth

[Shigetsu]

Hi All,

Following the death of a loved one, I've started to seriously question my Buddhist beliefs.

I would sincerely like to enquire if anyone can answer these, and substantiate their answers with suitable references? It would be most appreciated as these questions have caused me more than a little distress of late.

1) a. If the Universe is cyclic, would not all life be pointless - unless it is aimed at escape from this world ?
b. If life is pointless, what is the use of compassion or helping anyone?

2) a. Is there a 'transmission system' for rebirth?
b. Does death cut you off from loved ones for ever?
c. Was rebirth and karma, from the Buddha's viewpoint, a fact or just a teaching tool?

3) a. Is Buddhism philosophic idealism - i.e. To use a metaphor - we are all in Plato's cave, and outside the cave is the light, or the One (God, Perfection, Nirvana). As imperfect shadows we move to the light, but because we are not perfect we cannot exit the cave unless we leave ourselves behind?
b. To use the above metaphor, would it not make more sense for the Light to enter the cave and perfect those within - as in Christianity? In Buddhism, perfection / nirvana always feels rather cool and lacking in love.
c. Buddhism seems to rely upon techniques such as mindfulness and meditation - how do these techniques and 'austerities' have any effect on our spiritual life?

I admit I am probably hopelessly confused, but if someone could take the time to put me straight on these questions or suggest some reading etc. then I would be most grateful!

Many thanks in advance,
Shigetz.

[lowlydog]

Welcome to dharma wheel,

A lot of good questions, maybe break then up into seperate threads.

[jeeprs]

Well here is a response from a personal rather than a scholarly perspective.

I rather hope that Buddhism is not that much about 'belief' as such. Indeed belief can be a source of guidance and consolation, but the Buddha hopes to draw our attention to something quite concrete and not a matter of belief as such. That is the mechanism by which we generate unhappiness in our own lives and those of others. In some respects it is quite a simple thing to point out, but to really go to the bottom of it, is considerably more difficult. But nevertheless that is the starting point.

I have read a great deal of philosophy, including Platonism, which you mention. I find it generally edifying, but that is not what drew me to Buddhism in the first place. It was more a way of organizing my understanding around this very point of understanding 'suffering and the cause of suffering' in day to day life. To this end the Buddhist practice of sitting meditation has been very helpful.

If the Universe is cyclic, would not all life be pointless - unless it is aimed at escape from this world ?
b. If life is pointless, what is the use of compassion or helping anyone?

I don't know if life is pointless, but I think those kinds of speculations are pointless. There is never any shortage of people that need help or actions that can be undertaken. I think the point of the Buddhist teaching is to learn to undertake them in a suitable spirit. If you start out with a defeatist view, then defeat is what can be expected. So indeed - why bother?

2) a. Is there a 'transmission system' for rebirth?
b. Does death cut you off from loved ones for ever?
c. Was rebirth and karma, from the Buddha's viewpoint, a fact or just a teaching tool?

I have pondered this a great deal. I think that nature has some way of storing memories, like a collective consciousness. I certainly seem to have memories of a previous life, but it is never anything definite. I think that is part of the territory in regards to these types of questions. Perhaps we will never know for sure, and I think learning to live with that sense of not knowing, is an important skill.

But still, overall, I don't believe that this life is the only one. Can I 'prove' that? No.

I don't think that mindfulness is 'a technique'. If you think it is a technique, if you label it, and put it in that box, then it is probably nothing like actual mindfulness. Mindfulness is simply being 'choicelessly aware' as a great teacher used to often say.

I wouldn't look to Buddhism as the answer. Really it is like a mirror or a magnifying glass, a way to inspect the nature of your life. And also don't forget that the Buddha himself said don't become too attached to it. The most important thing is to practice, which, really, is simply what you do every day.

Hope that is helpful.

[Shigetsu]

In a Buddhist Universe does death cut you off from loved ones for ever?

Hi , I realise that I asked a lot of questions - however, I think the question above is the crux of my issue. I have wondered whether the Buddha may simply used the cyclic model of rebirth and karma as a 'skilful means' of teaching, as it was one of the prevailing beliefs of the time - in fact most non monotheistic religions involve some sort of cycles in their universe (possibly derived from their observations of the seasons and primitive astronomical observations), but did he maintain that Karma and Rebirth were absolutely how it works, or is it a teaching aid?

S.

[Raksha]

Does death cut you off from loved ones for ever?
Was rebirth and karma, from the Buddha's viewpoint, a fact or just a teaching tool?
In Buddhism, perfection / nirvana always feels rather cool and lacking in love.
Buddhism seems to rely upon techniques such as mindfulness and meditation - how do these techniques and 'austerities' have any effect on our spiritual life?

My sincere condolences for your loss. Buddha definitely taught karma and rebirth, and that beings are closely connected in successive lives like beans in a sack. Meditation and mindfulness are part of spiritual training and are compulsory for those working to free beings from suffering, however the principal element is always a loving heart.
'We can summarize the Four Boundless Qualities in the single phrase 'a kind heart', just train yourself to have a kind heart always in all situations.' [Patrul]
As to the 'purpose of cyclic existence', I can't answer that except to say that I suspect that we have actually wished this reality ourselves, and like the trick wishes of the faeries of legend, it hasn't turned out as expected. The Ultimate Truth is not 'cool and lacking in love'.
'The meaning of Buddhanature is said to be the ultimate perfection of bliss, purity, permanence and self.' [Uttaratantrasastra]

[futerko]

In a Buddhist Universe does death cut you off from loved ones for ever?

Hi , I realise that I asked a lot of questions - however, I think the question above is the crux of my issue. I have wondered whether the Buddha may simply used the cyclic model of rebirth and karma as a 'skilful means' of teaching, as it was one of the prevailing beliefs of the time - in fact most non monotheistic religions involve some sort of cycles in their universe (possibly derived from their observations of the seasons and primitive astronomical observations), but did he maintain that Karma and Rebirth were absolutely how it works, or is it a teaching aid?

S.

Karma and rebirth are part of relative rather than absolute truth.
I would recommend reading, "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche, for both an explanation and some nice practices to help loved ones.

[Tara]

Topic has been moved from the Academic Discussion forum into Exploring Buddhism.

[Seishin]

Personally, I think Buddhism is realism as apose to idealism. We can paint life in pretty colours and wear rosey glasses but the reality of life is at times it can really suck. This is Dukkha http://www.buddhapadipa.org/dhamma-corn ... isfaction/ and it is what you are experiencing now because of the death of a loved one. I felt it when we lost our unborn baby, the death of grand parents and a close friend. I am reminded here of the story of a woman who went to the Buddha with her dead child in her arms and begged the Buddha to heal and bring back her child from the dead. The Buddha said he requires a single mustard seed from a single household that has not experienced death. Off she went to every house in every near-by village, but each household told her about the death of their friends, family, loved ones. Realising the hardest lesson of all, she went back to the Buddha and became a disciple. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The Buddha spoke about Karma and Rebirth in many suttas and sutras, sometimes as fact and sometimes as a teaching tool. What he did say about these two topics is that they are imponderable http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Another sutta on kamma that I like illustrates that sometimes things happen because of karma and sometimes it's not karma but circumstance http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html so there is no knowing what is and what is not karma. The same can be said for rebirth. There is no knowing where our beloved (or ourselves) will go after we die or whether we'll meet again.

Although I know the above might not bring comfort, I like to take comfort in Indra's Net http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra's_net , http://dharmaflower.net/_collection/avatamsaka.pdf
Picture a web or net that spans in all directions and dimentions. At each intersection is a mirrored jewel which reflects all the other jewels, which reflect all the others and so one. Each jewel is connected to the other and each jewel contains every other jewel. This interconnection means we are connected to everyone in all directions and all dimensions at all times. So we never really lose anyone, they are always with us as we are with them.

I hope you find the solace you need to get you through these dark times. And if you need a shoulder to cry on, we will always be here

Gassho,
Seishin.

[viniketa]

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Does death cut you off from loved ones for ever?

IMHO the answer is a big loud NO!!!



We don't have proper perspective here because we're still living (mostly) in four dimensions.

Here is a nice story.

Once upon a time, we lived in four dimensions. Then we died.

But now - after we die, let's imagine we are living in five dimensions. We decide one day to visit a nice art gallery. There are hundreds of beautiful paintings in it. The first painting is called "life in four dimensions #1". The second is called "life in four dimensions #2". Etc. We come to an empty room in the art gallery where an artist is working on a painting called "life in four dimensions #3987459827091587405982710489". He sometimes looks like he's so focused on getting his painting just right that he's getting frustrated. So we suggest to him - you know, um, that thing you're working on it's not "real", right? It's "empty". But - he's so absorbed in his masterpiece that it's impossible to distract him. And after all, it really is going to be a masterpiece. Even the ugly, modern art paintings are kind of masterpieces in their own way, once you begin to understand a little bit about art history, etc. So we leave.

As we're leaving the art gallery we notice something else. The art gallery is called "life in five dimensions #1". There's an art gallery right next to it called "life in five dimensions #2". And then we notice that they go on an on right down the street. The street itself is called "life in five dimensions #5438763837653487". Art galleries, restaurants, museums, libraries, universities, nightclubs [hehe ], temples, theaters, churches, playgrounds. On and on and on. So many interesting, tasty and delicious treats to explore.

Now he're the idea we can take away from all this so far: no branch of the tree is ever "lost". Every single branch has existed, does exist and will always exist out there in hyperspace.

Now after a zillion years of living in five dimensions perhaps you and your friends are getting a little bored? Ennui beginning to set in? You all begin to get ants in your pants.

Something odd happens at this point. After exploring for a good long while you and your buddies notice a door. Above the door there is a sign which says - "to life in six dimensions". Now this is a little mind-blowing to say the least. The implication here is that every single one of these lives in five dimensions exists as merely one single branch of another tree - as merely one life in six dimensions. This tree with all of its zillions of branches becomes just one single branch of another tree which itself - probably - has zillions of branches.

The buddha of compassion pops into your head and says - nonono, you can't leave "life in five dimensions". Remember that artist you saw who was so focused on his painting in four dimensions? Well there are an awful lot of people like him, but kind of worse. They're so into their art they no longer have their feet on solid ground! We have to smack them upside the head and get them out of these art galleries for their own good! They're so concentrated on painting these "life in four dimensions" paintings they've started to forget there's other fun stuff to do. They've begun to think that "artist" equals "self". So we need to get them out. Kind of like a divine intervention. Plus aren't you kind of horrified at the idea that there's no final end to all these dimensions? Kind of like the "emptiness" of the painting "life in four dimensions #3987459827091587405982710489" - what if that kind of "emptiness" never stops?! Isn't that idea kind of, well, scary to you? And if it's scary to you it must be scary to all your pals living here in five dimensions. So why don't we all just stick around here and hug.

The buddha of wisdom pops into your head and says - meh go ahead go through the door. Don't you all want to at least go take a peep? Aren't you curious? Don't you want to, you know, evolve? Or become - not just enlightened, but, like - really totally super-cool enlightened?

The buddhas disappear in a puff of smoke and just as you get so frustrated that you feel like going to purchase a set of paintbrushes, another, odd figure appears.

Hello, she says, I am the buddha of the union of wisdom and compassion. And I am here to tell you that all this is nothing more than a silly story told by some crazy moron on the internet.

The end.

[Johnny Dangerous]

In a Buddhist Universe does death cut you off from loved ones for ever?

Hi , I realise that I asked a lot of questions - however, I think the question above is the crux of my issue. I have wondered whether the Buddha may simply used the cyclic model of rebirth and karma as a 'skilful means' of teaching, as it was one of the prevailing beliefs of the time - in fact most non monotheistic religions involve some sort of cycles in their universe (possibly derived from their observations of the seasons and primitive astronomical observations), but did he maintain that Karma and Rebirth were absolutely how it works, or is it a teaching aid?

S.

Yes...Karma and Rebirth are central to Buddhism, the whole point is to unbind from cyclic existence, if cyclic existence ends upon death there is no reason for Buddhism, as it is already predetermined that you will completely cease. The Buddha taught literal Karma and Rebirth, this really isn't in question.

Will you be cut off from your loved ones forever?

In a sense yes - in fact it is truth that you will be separated from everything you hold dear, this is a core Buddhist concept. On the other hand, if all beings have been our mothers and we have existed countless times, you are not really separate from anything but a clump of "stuff" - body, mental faculties, your own projections you label with the name of another human being, It is painful due to that.


Is life pointless - Well essentially in Buddhism yes, "life" as defined as samsara (endless wandering) is pretty much pointless, in that we live in it, believe it to be "real", but we are mistaken in what we see, the way we believe it exists is not actually the way in which it exists. Therefore "leaving the cave", or guiding others there are the only options, there is no "light" to let in, only a truth (and freedom) to be seen once the false is done away with - this is the point of meditation.


Meaning no offense, but the point is not whether any of this stuff is comforting to you, to the point is whether or not you believe it's true...if you believe it's true I would argue that Buddhism offers a greater peace than something like the idea of being with your loved ones forever, your loved ones are defined by their impermanence, if they were forever they would not be your loved ones. if not then it simply is not your worldview, and that is ok.

As far as what Nirvana "feels" like - it doesn't feel like anything, it is the truth outside of conditions, therefore could not be described as "love" or anything else, as "love" is the description of a thing that exists only in relation to other things, and Nirvana is outside of this. However it does seem that those who experienced it (you could look at the Jains for similar experiences) most certainly expressed the bliss they felt as love for other beings, and a desire to see an end to those beings suffering as well. To me that represents a very strong manifestation of love.

Again not trying to jump on you, but if you are questioning your Buddhist beliefs, maybe it's better to read up and figure out what those beliefs actually are first? Perhaps you could approach it by simply saying meditation is good for me, and maybe there is some truth here, so I will study up on the core concepts, and only accept or reject them based on my own experience.

[wisdom]

1) a. If the Universe is cyclic, would not all life be pointless - unless it is aimed at escape from this world ?
b. If life is pointless, what is the use of compassion or helping anyone?

More or less yes. The aim is escape from the cycles of your own mind and karma, the self created habits and ways of seeing the world. The goal is to free yourself from the slavery of the poisons of the mind and its delusions and enter a new, vivid, fresh experience of reality that is ever present and unchanging. The goal is essentially to reach your Buddha nature. Having found that, then you will understand that the purpose once you have done that is to help others do the same. The only thing worthwhile is to perform acts of compassion.

2) a. Is there a 'transmission system' for rebirth?
b. Does death cut you off from loved ones for ever?
c. Was rebirth and karma, from the Buddha's viewpoint, a fact or just a teaching tool?

I suppose you could call all teachings on the Bardo "transmissions" about rebirth. Death does not cut you off from loved ones. Everyone we know exists in our minds and hearts. Everything we think we know about them, the kind of person we think they are, everything is contained in our minds and our perceptions of them. Ever think you know someone only to discover you didn't know them at all? Thats because the perception you had of them was simply different from what they are as a total person. What "dies" when a person dies is the possibility of new encounters with that person. Its the fact that those encounters and hopes are no longer possible that causes us to mourn. Our mourning is in direct proportion to how much we believed we would always have this person in our lives. If its someone who we didn't know that well, we might feel sad but ultimately will get over it quickly. If its someone we are very close to, the mourning might never really end even if it becomes less and less, there will still be times when we mourn that loss.

As for rebirth there are many beliefs. In the least rebirth is a teaching about the mind, how the mind proliferates the same habits and patterns over and over again based on our karma and so we experience rebirth of the same mental states over and over again until we learn to still the mind. At the other extreme the doctrine of rebirth is literal, there are literally these realms "out there" somewhere in the spiritual aethyr that we travel to when we die based on our karma in this life, from terrible hells to blissful heavens. I reconcile these by simply knowing that in either case it comes down to whats in your mind. Taming the mind is what determines where we are reborn, and it doesn't particularly matter whether or not the various realms are "real and literal" or not or if those heavens and hells are experienced in this very body and mind in this world. They are real for the mind in either case, and not taming the mind makes us a victim of our own karma, so thats the conditions we have to work with.

3) a. Is Buddhism philosophic idealism - i.e. To use a metaphor - we are all in Plato's cave, and outside the cave is the light, or the One (God, Perfection, Nirvana). As imperfect shadows we move to the light, but because we are not perfect we cannot exit the cave unless we leave ourselves behind?
b. To use the above metaphor, would it not make more sense for the Light to enter the cave and perfect those within - as in Christianity? In Buddhism, perfection / nirvana always feels rather cool and lacking in love.
c. Buddhism seems to rely upon techniques such as mindfulness and meditation - how do these techniques and 'austerities' have any effect on our spiritual life?

Mindfulness and meditation are only part of the equation, hence the Buddha gave the teaching of the eightfold path- eight things we should do if we want liberation. Also take a look at the six perfections (paramitas) and the vow/ideal of the Bodhisattva, they are focused entirely on benefiting other beings from a place of pure, transcendental love. The essence of any spiritual path is the cultivation of an open heart and open mind together, and the foundation of this cultivation is the desire to be of benefit to other sentient beings out of unconditional love. The method of cultivation is meditation, and the support of meditation comes from the practice of austerities such as continence, refraining from lying, killing, stealing and anything else that proliferates poisons in the mind. If you don't practice any kind of moral discipline or austerities, then the mind is just going to run amok, your meditation won't progress very fast or at all, therefore the mind and heart will remain closed and your spiritual potential (Buddha nature) will remain hidden and obscured rather than manifest.

I admit I am probably hopelessly confused, but if someone could take the time to put me straight on these questions or suggest some reading etc. then I would be most grateful!

Many thanks in advance,
Shigetz.

I suggest you look into the Mahayana approach to Buddhism. It almost entirely emphasizes the practice of altruism as a spiritual practice.

[Sara H]

This thread is essentially a question about Dependent Origination.

The best clear English book that I know of regarding Dependant Origination is by Koshin Shomberg a former Order of Buddhist Contemplatives Monk.

Koshin, has since, unfortunately, gone off his rocker since he wrote that, (which occasionally, sadly, can happen if people are not doing Buddhist training deep enough).

So I don't recommend him as a teacher or anything.

But at the time he wrote that, he was spot on, and Rev Master Dazui the head of the Order (when he was alive, and a very fine monk) endorsed it as is apparent in the introduction.

The full mini- book can be found here:
http://www.northcascadesbuddhistpriory. ... nation.PDF

But here is an except and summary that is from the book that basically explains it briefly and then the book goes into it in even more detail, explaining it:

Dependent Origination

On ignorance depend willful actions.

On willful actions depends relinking consciousness.

On relinking consciousness depend body and mind.

On body and mind depends the functioning of the six senses.

On the functioning of the six senses depends sense experience.

On sense experience depends feeling.

On feeling depends craving.

On craving depends clinging.

On clinging depends becoming.

On becoming depends rebirth.

On rebirth depends old age, death and the continuation of suffering.


With the cessation of ignorance and craving in any lifetime, clinging ceases.

With the cessation of clinging, becoming ceases.

With the cessation of becoming, rebirth ceases.

On the cessation of rebirth depends the cessation of old age, death and the continuation of suffering.

Again I don't recommend Koshin as a teacher, he's gone quite crazy since he wrote that.

But that work, in itself is actually quite good, and deserves the credit of it's merits.

In Gassho,

Sara H

[Sara H]

I would also add this very nice link with a booklet by Rev. Daizui himself:
http://www.pinemtnbuddhisttemple.org/dh ... Daizui.pdf

In Gassho,

Sara H

[Queequeg]

Hi All,

Following the death of a loved one,

1) a. If the Universe is cyclic, would not all life be pointless - unless it is aimed at escape from this world ?
b. If life is pointless, what is the use of compassion or helping anyone?

a. Cyclic I think is a misleading way to look at samsara. I think is more accurate to say, samsara rhymes, but it does not repeat. Keep in mind, its a metaphor. The same sort of things keep happening, because there is a particular condition playing out - a deep truth. Variation is infinite and the chance of exact duplication of anything is a fraction of infinity, and if you can quantify that, go collect your Fields Medal. So, if life is not cyclical, do you still need to ask of life is pointless? Do you need to propose the only option you can apparently propose - escape?
b. This has not been established. You presume that life is pointless so you paint yourself into a corner. You do yourself disservice with these assumptions.

2) a. Is there a 'transmission system' for rebirth?
b. Does death cut you off from loved ones for ever?
c. Was rebirth and karma, from the Buddha's viewpoint, a fact or just a teaching tool?

a. May have there is. May have there aint.
b. What is life? What is death? Your skipping a bunch of considerations and running off on speculation. Speculative questions on top of rank speculation. You need to back up and figure out what you are dealing with in the first place.
c. Only the Buddha knows. Neither I nor anyone I have ever encountered has had the insight to fully understand the Buddha's Upaya (expedient means).

3) a. Is Buddhism philosophic idealism - i.e. To use a metaphor - we are all in Plato's cave, and outside the cave is the light, or the One (God, Perfection, Nirvana). As imperfect shadows we move to the light, but because we are not perfect we cannot exit the cave unless we leave ourselves behind?
b. To use the above metaphor, would it not make more sense for the Light to enter the cave and perfect those within - as in Christianity? In Buddhism, perfection / nirvana always feels rather cool and lacking in love.
c. Buddhism seems to rely upon techniques such as mindfulness and meditation - how do these techniques and 'austerities' have any effect on our spiritual life?

a. No. I may not be able to tell you what the teaching is, but I can tell you what the teaching is not, and Plato's Republic is not in consonance with the Buddha's teachings.
b. This would assume there was no light within to begin with. Labored as it is to use this metaphor of light - the source of light is within - so why do you need light from elsewhere? What you need is someone to show you how to reveal the light from within. What act of love is greater than sharing enlightenment?
c. See for yourself. You want me to explain how chocolate cake tastes or do you just want to taste it. I think the latter is much easier and more certain to satisfy your curiosity.

[Konchog1]

[The Blessed One said:] "If both husband & wife want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come, they should be in tune [with each other] in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment. Then they will see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Queequeg]

[The Blessed One said:] "If both husband & wife want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come, they should be in tune [with each other] in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment. Then they will see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Ah.

[Shigetsu]

Thanks for all your posts.

I'm fine now, I've accepted the loss and let it go.

Wow, Buddhism works. Who'd a thunk it?

Regards,
S

[vysam]

greetings to all

the questions debated upon are fundamental.human beings need great understanding and fortitude to cope with the loss of a loved one.may that be on the friend.even love is a disposition--raga.to exist and not to exist without essence is the way of the buddhas