"Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy"

[beautiful breath]

I am a Psycholgical Therapist. I am seeing a growing number of people being trained in "Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy" who are then let loose in our hospitals and surgeries 'teaching' what many of us have been doing for decades. I for one feel a little agreived at this for many reasons not least of which is the implication that after a years study at a University and a one 5 day retreat they're somehow 'qualified' to teach what is effectively a Buddhist practice and getting paid for it....am I missing something here or is this money making on the back of a 2,500 year old philosophy?

What next...Prayer Based Cognitive Therapy. Graduates telling Christians how to pray???

Thoughts?

BB...

[gregkavarnos]

I was using the (MBCT) method to treat stress/anxiety before I knew that it existed as a succinct therapeutic form. I merely combined my training as a psychologist with my experience in Sati meditation. It works REALLy well mainly because I would give people a thoroughly scientific and materialist account of stress/anxiety taking into account things like: diet, neurology, socialisation, psychological explanations of emotional states, health oriented life styles, pharmacology, anthropological accounts, etc... and use simple Sati meditation to look at bodily sensations and the breath as a way to break their focus on the apparent object that was causing them anxiety/stress.

Excellent results: People breaking their dependence on medication for their condition, people overcoming their phobias, relaxation of peoples attitudes towards the reality and significance of phenomena/situations, etc...

Sati meditation is a Sutta technique and as such does not require all the tantric bells and ribbons in order for somebody to practice and benefit from it. Sati meditation (especially anapanasati) is a technique recommende for all personality types and has litle chance of producing deluded mind states in the practitioner. I would not recommend it for depression though.

So my opinion? Excellent! The more people out there using and benefiting from the technique (even in a therapeutic setting, ie without enlightenment as the goal) the better. At the very least it will make this life easier. It may lead to a better rebirth in the next life. It may even lead the "patient" to enlightenment! I know it has lead many of my former "patients" to continue meditating and develop towards applying more "advanced" mediational techniques.

[Jikan]

I am a Psycholgical Therapist. I am seeing a growing number of people being trained in "Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy" who are then let loose in our hospitals and surgeries 'teaching' what many of us have been doing for decades. I for one feel a little agreived at this for many reasons not least of which is the implication that after a years study at a University and a one 5 day retreat they're somehow 'qualified' to teach what is effectively a Buddhist practice and getting paid for it....am I missing something here or is this money making on the back of a 2,500 year old philosophy?
.

Well, they're not really teaching what many of us have been doing for decades, but merely a small slice of it. They're not teaching the Buddhist practice of mindfulness (smriti); they're teaching a kind of situational self-consciousness that looks like IMS-style vipassana minus the Buddhist teachings. Buddhism doesn't teach mindfulness for its own sake, or for the sake of stress reduction. Mindfulness in Buddhism is taught as an integral part of a contemplative practice, in the context of detailed teachings on the mind and on ethics and so on.

Analogy: someone teaching a redacted version of yogic breathing in a hospital. Is that Hinduism?

[catmoon]

Amazing, isn't it? I mean these teachings have so much relevance that even after millenia have passed, you can still junk 'em for parts, weld the bits together in your garage, and get a functional, useful healing practice that is acceptable even to health professionals.

[beautiful breath]

...just saying!

[jyoti_011]

Hello , Can anyone provide me any information regarding MBCT (Mindfulness based cognitive therapy ) training in india . can anyone help me please. Thank you!

[Sara H]

Beautiful Breath, No, I hear you, my first reaction to this was to be quite annoyed,

But you know what? I' heard they are teaching to to soldiers, and such in the military.

If that's the form of the Dharma they need to practice, well then good for them.

I came to the conclusion that I'm glad they are doing something helpful for them.

The truth, the whole truth, and anything else that works I suppose.

And with the ideal, comes the actual.

If this is the form of the Dharma that works for them in actuality, then, I say good for them.

In Gassho,

Sara H

[greentara]

Beautiful breath comments I am a Psycholgical Therapist. I am seeing a growing number of people being trained in "Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy" who are then let loose in our hospitals.....
I certainly hear what you're saying and understand you see them as interlopers. I'm not a great supporter of phychologists as I feel a sympathetic friend can often do as much without paying for services under the guise of 'we can help you' It can be a pretence of knowledge, a well funded pseudoscience.
You can always spot a patient as they spout 'clinician speak' after being in therapy for even a short while. They all sound the same, using identical buzz words.
I understand you are angered by the watered down therapy and teaching. Well I'm annoyed as well but thats 'conveyor belt' progress for you!

[Kim O'Hara]

Amazing, isn't it? I mean these teachings have so much relevance that even after millenia have passed, you can still junk 'em for parts, weld the bits together in your garage, and get a functional, useful healing practice that is acceptable even to health professionals.

More seriously, I know there are a lot of people who would benefit from Buddhist teachings but won't go near them, just because they are labelled "Buddhist". It's a rationalist-materialist society out there, apart from the bits that are still old-style Christian.

That being the case, MBCT and the other Buddhism-lite therapies have an important place, however much we may prefer the real thing for ourselves.


Kim

[Simon E.]

I am a Psycholgical Therapist. I am seeing a growing number of people being trained in "Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy" who are then let loose in our hospitals and surgeries 'teaching' what many of us have been doing for decades. I for one feel a little agreived at this for many reasons not least of which is the implication that after a years study at a University and a one 5 day retreat they're somehow 'qualified' to teach what is effectively a Buddhist practice and getting paid for it....am I missing something here or is this money making on the back of a 2,500 year old philosophy?
.

Well, they're not really teaching what many of us have been doing for decades, but merely a small slice of it. They're not teaching the Buddhist practice of mindfulness (smriti); they're teaching a kind of situational self-consciousness that looks like IMS-style vipassana minus the Buddhist teachings. Buddhism doesn't teach mindfulness for its own sake, or for the sake of stress reduction. Mindfulness in Buddhism is taught as an integral part of a contemplative practice, in the context of detailed teachings on the mind and on ethics and so on.

Analogy: someone teaching a redacted version of yogic breathing in a hospital. Is that Hinduism?

Quite so. I know no CBTherapist who conflates the aims of CBT with Dharma..CBT does not and cannot lead to Liberation.
It can help some people to live more productive lives in conventional terms however.
Cognitive therapies are not unreal Dharma..they are real therapies.
Just as dentistry is not a substitute for Dharma..it can make for fewer distractions in practice however to have less tooth pain ..or fewer repetitive negative thoughts.

Also I know no NHS Health Trust here in the UK who would allow any form of therapy to be practised by those whose only qualification is a short course..
Most are M.D.s as I am, or experienced psychiatric nurses or social workers who have learned CBT after graduating and who are required to practice under supervision for some considerable time.

[Sara H]

It's kindof funny,

I had a good friend who did this, who was also a roomate in a shared "Zen" house.

She had many years of practice as a Buddhist.

However, I remember asking her about responsibility.

If someone has been doing meditation, even for a short while, they can have things come up spiritually that need to be delt with (or rather have the advice of) someone who really knows what they are doing. Otherwise the person can become very scared, and either freak out, or be turned off toward meditation, and doing any sortof contemplative practice, blaming the practice for what came up in their sitting.

I told as much to her, and asked her what her procedure was for dealing with such a thing should it ever come up.

She didn't really have an answer for me.

I actually first asked her who qualified her to be teaching meditation.

I pointed out that she was essentially teaching Buddhist practice (she was and I assume still is a practicing Buddhist) and I asked her who certified her.

She answered me kinda indirectly but basically the answer was that no one had.

Though of course she had a degree in counseling or what not.

That's the price of mixing Buddhism with psychology.

In a sense, it makes it more accessible to some, especially those who may need it only at that moment but might be turned off by religion, but the price is paid in lack of understanding or Dharma and Sangha.

If something goes wrong, (or right, but they don't know it's right, and don't know how to handle it) they're kinda on their own, or at the hands of some mindfulness instructor who may or may not know what they are doing.

And then if that instructor has to call for help, for backup to a priest or other trained Dharma Teacher, the person may be resentful, that they were essentially practicing Buddhism, a religion without their full know-how, and knowledge and consent, and they might be resentful of the person for it, potentially, for not informing them beforehand.

Of course I think in reality, most people know the connection to Buddhism, "that these techniques have been practiced for centuries....", "derived from ancient Buddhist practices.." etc.

It does make one wonder..

But, it's just the way it is I suppose.

And, like I said, if that's the way it's accessible to some people, then so be it. I'm glad it helps them.
Some people just need to have things in certain ways.

I've made my peace with it.

In Gassho,

Sara H