Dharma Wheel

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:31 pm**

GarcherLancelot wrote:I don;t know but I try to practise the most "realistic" method I can find even if it would take longer and harder to accomplish,I think working hard works better for me than working smart,but I allow myself exceptions here and there ,so now I am considering whether if your method is realistic enough for me,because I have some ADHD tendencies and intellectualizing quite alot ,so basically if I use this method,i might end up daydreaming a lot.Btw,what is the difference between your method and how normal people would use their mind?.. .

P/S:Your meditation is more or less close your eyes and then...whatever?.. .

PP/S:I found out when I let my mind drift,I start to fear about thinking about things I shouldn't think about.. .

The best method for you is to do breathing practice IMO. There is nothing more realistic than breathing IMO. You do it every second of your life since the minute you were born. To sit there and just pay attention to it, is very beneficial! So when you sit there you put attention on your breath. Breath in and breath out. Breath in and breath out. Then of course, your attention will naturally come off the breath and onto some other thing. Some random memory, some other thoughts, some intellectualizing, or perhaps some different feelings, etc. Then, when you notice that your attention has gone off the breath, you gently bring it back to the breath. Not judging yourself for having gone off the breath. Not saying things like "I'm doing meditation, I should not be thinking about that!", etc, etc. But simply coming back to the breath without any fuss about what was just going on. Then, breath in and breath out. Breath in and breath out. Rinse and repeat. After a while of doing this, your mind will wander less, there will be less intellectualizing, less daydreaming. Your mind will naturally become more focused, more calm and more peaceful, just by doing this very simple breathing. This would be a very good practice method for you, IMO. This is a very good practice for anyone, regardless of how "advanced" they are.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:45 am**

Buddha in nirvan as well as Absolute God, both have a common mind factor and it is MINDFULNESS.

So when you are mindful, at that moment you are with Buddha / God.
God/Buddha knows what is good for you in the moment of mindfulness.

Every moment of mindfulness is a greatest moment of your life. So choice is yours.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:15 am**

Maybe it's not mindfulness we need but no mind? "Hey, you, what do you want?' I was amazed how so wonderfully the whole thing was setup to help remove my doubts and worries. I told the Swami about the Goenka meditation that I did and how the meditation emphasizes the purification of the latent (unconscious) mental tendencies. He looked at me sweetly and slowly started to lie down on his bed. As he was lying down he said, 'I know nothing about the mind and its tendencies. all I know is, be asleep to it all.' I am sure to this day that his face changed complexion, and he started to snore. I was sitting there and he was snoring. At that moment, an Ashram worker came in to see the Swami. He saw the Swami sleeping there and he promptly lay down on a bench as well and started to snore. I decided to lie down too on the bed beside the Swami and went into a deep deep silence. After a while, I became aware of the noises around us and looked. Swami was rising from the bed and staring at me. He said very pointedly, 'Do you understand?' The Ashram worker was still snoring, Swami laughed and said, 'He does!"

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:42 pm**

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:51 pm**

Can I meditate wothout focusing on breath ?I mean just meditate ,eyes open,doing whatever you are doing,jz be aware of everything,does that count as meditate?.. .

P/S:WHat type of meditation do you guys recommend me?I don;t really like breath meditation.. .

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:41 pm**

GarcherLancelot wrote:Can I meditate wothout focusing on breath ?I mean just meditate ,eyes open,doing whatever you are doing,jz be aware of everything,does that count as meditate?.. .

Yes, in Zen, it's generally called "Shikantaza" or "Silent Illumination" and it is definitely a legitimate and traditional type of meditation. But this method is very rarely taught to beginning students as it is much more difficult than breath counting or just breathing. It is generally only taught and recommended to students after they have gained some skill at breathing meditation. In order for shikantaza to be of benefit, many teachers teach that one must first gain some skill in "collecting the mind". Otherwise, you may just spend the whole time daydreaming or something. But of course, that does not mean you are not allowed to try it. If you look up "shikantaza" or "silent illumination meditation", on google, there is a lot of stuff there about it.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:49 pm**

seeker242 wrote:
GarcherLancelot wrote:Can I meditate wothout focusing on breath ?I mean just meditate ,eyes open,doing whatever you are doing,jz be aware of everything,does that count as meditate?.. .

Yes, in Zen, it's generally called "Shikantaza" or "Silent Illumination" and it is definitely a legitimate and traditional type of meditation. But this method is very rarely taught to beginning students as it is much more difficult than breath counting or just breathing. It is generally only taught and recommended to students after they have gained some skill at breathing meditation. In order for shikantaza to be of benefit, many teachers teach that one must first gain some skill in "collecting the mind". Otherwise, you may just spend the whole time daydreaming or something. But of course, that does not mean you are not allowed to try it. If you look up "shikantaza" or "silent illumination meditation", on google, there is a lot of stuff there about it.

I see,because personally I feel breathing is abit frustrating,I don't know just don;t like it.. .Shikantaza sounds cool (even when reading the kanji in chinese haha),but being part of Zen Buddhism make me feel its not as simple as it seems.. .

Posted: **Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:08 am**

oushi wrote:
Btw,what is the difference between your method and how normal people would use their mind?.. .
Normally, mind is trying to figure out how to behave now and in the future. This way, people are creating methods all the time. That is the reason of inner chat in the first place. If you understand no-method, thoughts will eventually quiet down without the need of controlling them. No need for methods = no need for thoughts. If you, on the other hand, see thoughts as your enemy, something you need to get ride of by force, you will only break your teeth during meditation, and it can even be dangerous to you psychical health.
P/S:Your meditation is more or less close your eyes and then...whatever?.. .
No method. You can do whatever you want. Sit, walk, run or lie down. Let whatever happens happen, just don't create methods, ways of doing things right. "I should do it like this", "I do it wrong", "now I'm doing it right!". If nothing happens, just sit without contriving anything, reality will lead you, don't worry. At the beginning you can repeat "no method" to yourself to check if there is no method applied that you are not aware of. This way you can practice any time of the day.

Everything is already present, the only problem is in bringing effort when it is not needed. People hold the world on their shoulders like Atlas, thinking that finding a better method of doing that will ease their suffering. Not only world is not going to stop, it won't stop even if you try to stop it.

Are you suggesting something like wuwei?.. .

Posted: **Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:22 am**

GarcherLancelot wrote:Are you suggesting something like wuwei?.. .

Yes.

Posted: **Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:18 pm**

GarcherLancelot wrote

"I see,because personally I feel breathing is abit frustrating,I don't know just don;t like it.. "

Then stop, remain aware, and see what happens. Shouldn't take very long.

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:14 pm**

oushi wrote:
GarcherLancelot wrote:Are you suggesting something like wuwei?.. .
Yes.

What if I start thinking of things I should not think about?Or if I get into a negative mental state?.. .

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:00 pm**

GarcherLancelot wrote: What if I start thinking of things I should not think about?

There are no such things. Thoughts will be released leaving great fulfillment only if you let them be. Give them unlimited space, and you will feel relief instantaneously.

Or if I get into a negative mental state?

Same. As long as you are not aware of it, you cannot do much. As soon as you are aware of it, let it go.

Posted: **Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:17 pm**

oushi wrote:
GarcherLancelot wrote: What if I start thinking of things I should not think about?
There are no such things. Thoughts will be released leaving great fulfillment only if you let them be. Give them unlimited space, and you will feel relief instantaneously.
Or if I get into a negative mental state?
Same. As long as you are not aware of it, you cannot do much. As soon as you are aware of it, let it go.

Isn't letting it go same as controlling the thoughts?.. .

Posted: **Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:34 pm**

GarcherLancelot wrote:Isn't letting it go same as controlling the thoughts?

No, although they must coexist. If there is controlling, you have to let it go, by letting it be. It may look futile, but it isn't. While keeping normal functioning, you slowly detach by revealing empty nature of both controlling and letting go.

Posted: **Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:44 pm**

oushi wrote:
GarcherLancelot wrote:Isn't letting it go same as controlling the thoughts?
No, although they must coexist. If there is controlling, you have to let it go, by letting it be. It may look futile, but it isn't. While keeping normal functioning, you slowly detach by revealing empty nature of both controlling and letting go.

Coexist as in while letting go is a form of controlling it must exist ?Empty nature of both controlling and letting go?What do you mean?.. .

Posted: **Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:04 pm**

Dear Garcher,

From "Rainbow Painting" by Tulku Urgyen

Liberation of thoughts can be described as occurring in several different ways. The great master Vimalamitra mentioned three types of liberation. The first example is said to be like meeting someone you already know; the second is similar to a knot tied in a snake, and the third is the analogy of a thief entering and empty house.

Recognize the thought as it occurs so that it is liberated simultaneously with its arising. This is very much unlike the stream of thoughts that surges through the mind of an ordinary person. Often called 'black diffusion', this state in an unwholesome pattern of dissipation in which there in no knowledge whatsoever about who is thinking, where the thought comes from, and where the thought disappears.

One has not even caught the 'scent' of awareness; there are only unwholesome thought patterns operating, so that one is totally and mindlessly carried away by one thought after another. That is definitely not the path of liberation!

Dhammapada #21

Mindfulness is the path to the deathless;
Heedlessness is the path to death.
The mindful do not die;
But the heedless are as if dead already.

Gampopa "String of Pearls" #20

This Dharma teaching can be given to anyone.
To summarize how we should turn our minds away from this life and practice: We should have firmly in our minds the thought that we don't need anything. Then, as for our practice, that should be the practice of the four yogas. The four yogas are one-pointendness, non-elaboration, the one taste of the manifold and non-meditation.
One pointedness is being totally fixed upon whatever the mind is focused on, aware of whatever it is; that is your meditation. Without distraction keep your mind on that single focus.

From "Mahamudra, The Ocean of True Meaning" by Karmapa Wangchung Dorje

FOCUSING THE MIND
ON AN IMPURE OUTER OBJECT
Lesson 24 -Exercise 21
Focusing the mind on a large object: correctly adopt the key
points of the body posture and the gaze, and direct your
attention and your gaze one-pointedly to any clear visual
object, which happens to be in front of you, such as a pillar,
a wall or a mountain. Stay steadily on it without getting
distracted by anything else. Focusing on a small object: hold
the mind either on a small four inch piece of wood or a small
pebble in front of you, whichever is suitable.

Leave the mind natural, because if your focus on the object
is very tense, it will cause more mental activity. Not allowing
any wandering off to other objects, stay one-pointedly with
your object, completely relaxed but undistracted. Without
thinking about its size, length, or color, stay naturally relaxed
and undistracted, but do not allow the rope of mindfulness to
be cut. Since this object is just a reminder to support undistracted
mindfulness, simply direct your gaze undistractedly
to the object and stay relaxed. There is nothing to meditate
about the object.
When during your session the object starts to flicker and
move or becomes invisible, or when your eyes become numb,
stop immediately looking at the object. Look straight ahead
into space at eye-level, and keep the mind relaxed in its natural
state. Just be undistracted, not directing your meditation
in any way and, unaffected by drowsiness and fogginess, stay
unwaveringly in transparent awareness. This is the meaning
of Tilopa's words: "When the mind has no reference point,
this is mahamudra. Once habituated and well acquainted
with this, you will attain unsurpassable enlightenment."

Leave the mind natural, because if your focus on the object
is very tense, it will cause more mental activity. Not allowing
any wandering off to other objects, stay one-pointedly with
your object, completely relaxed but undistracted. Without
thinking about its size, length, or color, stay naturally relaxed
and undistracted, but do not allow the rope of mindfulness to
be cut. Since this object is just a reminder to support undistracted
mindfulness, simply direct your gaze undistractedly
to the object and stay relaxed. There is nothing to meditate
about the object.
When during your session the object starts to flicker and
move or becomes invisible, or when your eyes become numb,
stop immediately looking at the object. Look straight ahead
into space at eye-level, and keep the mind relaxed in its natural
state. Just be undistracted, not directing your meditation
in any way and, unaffected by drowsiness and fogginess, stay
unwaveringly in transparent awareness. This is the meaning
of Tilopa's words: "When the mind has no reference point,
this is mahamudra. Once habituated and well acquainted
with this, you will attain unsurpassable enlightenment."

As can be seen from all the quotes mindfulness is 100% necessary. Especially at the beginning of the path where our mind is wild and untethered. If we do not practice mindfulness then we will not be able to achieve meditative absorption. Our wild and unruly mind will just chase after thoughts, sensations, etc... This is not meditation, this is what Vimalamitra referred to as black difussion. Both Gampopa and the Karmapa Wangchung Dorje quite clearly spell out that there are a number of stages that one must pass through (unless on has the unbelievably good karma to meet a techer that sucessfully introduces them to the nature of their mind, something that I believe that Garcher has not had the opportunity of experiencing). But even those that have such positive karma have already accumulated wisdom and merit during their past lifetimes.

So my friend Garcher, until you have accumulated the karma for direct introduction it's quite obvious that you have to sit your ass down and focus your mind. It seems to me that some people here are advising you to fly before you have even hatched. Ever seen an egg fly? it's not a pretty sight!

Posted: **Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:39 pm**

GarcherLancelot wrote:
monktastic wrote:
GarcherLancelot wrote: hmm,I donno but I need to pay attention or my mind starts flying here and there. ..
After some practice, you may find this is no longer the case. Even with no concentration per se, one's mind can be in the flow of the moment.

Right now doing it seems like a tiring chore ,letting my mind fly is easier....currently that is. ..

It's a confusion of symptoms.

The "monkey mind" wants to play around.
The "concentrated mind" is like the adult in the room watching all the children play.
The "mindfulness" is devoid of either symptom. It is not "monkey mind" in that it does not attach itself to every last thing it comes across, "Ooh, piece of candy." It is not "concentrated mind" as it is not focused on any one thing. It is not focused on any thought, or the thinker. They appear, but simply do not hold sway or control over anything, and they change constantly with their fleeting existence. It's like watching a group of fireflies flicker in and out, and doing absolutely nothing about it.

Posted: **Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:33 am**

No method. You can do whatever you want. Sit, walk, run or lie down. Let whatever happens happen, just don't create methods, ways of doing things right. "I should do it like this", "I do it wrong", "now I'm doing it right!". If nothing happens, just sit without contriving anything, reality will lead you, don't worry. At the beginning you can repeat "no method" to yourself to check if there is no method applied that you are not aware of. This way you can practice any time of the day.

Such ideas could lead to enlightenment.
What would we do with our precious jewels?

It seems that mind control is desired [some mistake there obviously] . . .
Virtue is something we attach to behaviour [another mistake there] . . .
Perfection is somewhere we get to [lovely - that should keep us dreaming]

that's the way you do it

Dharma Wheel

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