Dharma Wheel

GarcherLancelot wrote: Ok then in this case what is the difference between mindfulness and "living in the future,past or present"?.. .I am not controlling my thoughts like I am paying a lot of attention and thought-stopping over nothing but just observe and more aware of whatever I am doing.. .

1. There is no difference when you are mindful.
2. Every effort, whether controlling or observing, stirs the mind. If you develop sensitivity towards those moments you will see that they appears only from time to time, stir the mind, and disappear. During such a moment, we are confident that we are aware, mindful, in control, so we want to extend this experience, as we desire them. This is the cause of delusion in the first place. But people practice it, although it's difficult and exhausting. If you stop controlling, observing and string the mind, a natural clarity will arise, which is very similar to the previous one, but totally effortless and "conceptless". This is the mindfulness, and it arises from not seeking. There are many teachings that are aimed to help practitioner pinpoint this "state", like:
"Changing phantoms, flowers in the empty sky, Why tire yourself in trying to seize them? Gain and loss, yes and no, Throw them all away in one go."
If you are not driven by gain, those short, fake moments of control have no basis to arise and mind is naturally cleared.

oushi wrote:

seeker242 wrote:A really good bank robber can go with the flow and have great awareness, but he certainly is not practicing right mindfulness.

Have you ever did such a thing (bank robbing), or at least met such a person? What is the point of imagining such an weird thing and judging it afterwards?

Because bank robbing is a precepts violation AKA wrong action and makes bad karma. The Buddha did not teach "mindfulness", he taught "right mindfulness". If you are not being mindful of abandoning wrong action, then you are not practicing right mindfulness. Right mindfulness is more than just a simple awareness of washing pots and pans or driving a car.

"One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness...

"One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness...

"One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness...

"One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness...

"One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness..."

— MN 117

seeker242 wrote:If you are not being mindful of abandoning wrong action, then you are not practicing right mindfulness

You think it's the object of the mindfulness that makes it right? No, right mindfulness leads to abandoning wrong actions. You have read it in the wrong order. You wrote "mindful of abandoning", and in the sutra you have "mindful to abandon". In other words, if you are mindful in a right way, that will lead to abandoning wrong view, speech, action...
Now you are just practicing morality according to sutras not mindfulness. Perfect proof here:

Because bank robbing is a precepts violation AKA wrong action and makes bad karma.

You can scare kids with such stories.

oushi wrote:

seeker242 wrote:If you are not being mindful of abandoning wrong action, then you are not practicing right mindfulness

You think it's the object of the mindfulness that makes it right? No, right mindfulness leads to abandoning wrong actions. You have read it in the wrong order. You wrote "mindful of abandoning", and in the sutra you have "mindful to abandon". In other words, if you are mindful in a right way, that will lead to abandoning wrong view, speech, action...
Now you are just practicing morality according to sutras not mindfulness. Perfect proof here:

That misses the whole point I was making. Which is: mindfulness is more than just a simple awareness of the present moment. A bank robber is not practicing right mindfulness because if he was, he would not be robbing banks to begin with....which means right mindfulness is more than just simple awareness of the moment. If you want to argue semantics, not really interested in that, as there is no point.

Because bank robbing is a precepts violation AKA wrong action and makes bad karma.

You can scare kids with such stories.

Just because it is scary, does not make it not true.

seeker242 wrote:Just because it is scary, does not make it not true.

It's scary only for kids and fanatics.

seeker242 wrote:Which is: mindfulness is more than just a simple awareness of the present moment.

Yes, and it isn't based on right conduct. It's not about popping your eyes to see more and collecting rules to react better. Common awareness of the present moment is full of judgement. Adding more rules and effort just creates tension, something that is opposite to mindfulness. It's like using dirty stick to clear muddy water.

oushi wrote:

seeker242 wrote:Just because it is scary, does not make it not true.

It's scary only for kids and fanatics.

seeker242 wrote:Which is: mindfulness is more than just a simple awareness of the present moment.

Yes, and it isn't based on right conduct. It's not about popping your eyes to see more and collecting rules to react better. Common awareness of the present moment is full of judgement. Adding more rules and effort just creates tension, something that is opposite to mindfulness.

I disagree.

seeker242 wrote:

oushi wrote:

seeker242 wrote:Just because it is scary, does not make it not true.

It's scary only for kids and fanatics.

seeker242 wrote:Which is: mindfulness is more than just a simple awareness of the present moment.

Yes, and it isn't based on right conduct. It's not about popping your eyes to see more and collecting rules to react better. Common awareness of the present moment is full of judgement. Adding more rules and effort just creates tension, something that is opposite to mindfulness.

I disagree.

Good, just don't hold anything else as true and mindfulness will arise.

oushi wrote: Good, just don't hold anything else as true and mindfulness will arise.

Meh, I don't follow your rules!

seeker242 wrote: Right mindfulness is more than just a simple awareness of washing pots and pans or driving a car.

Actually the right mindfulness is less than a simple moment of awareness.
Oushi explains it very well.
Right mindfulness is about abandoning since that which needs to be abandoned is seen as having no value whatsoever.
Right mindfulness it is a limitation and limitation is the sign of samsara.

alpha wrote:Actually the right mindfulness is less than a simple moment of awareness.

I typed precisely the same thing when replying, but gave up and didn't post. Something resonates here .

alpha wrote:Oushi explains it very well.

Maybe not very well, but thank you. I'm doing my best.

Right mindfulness is about abandoning since that which needs to be abandoned is seen as having no value whatsoever.

Eventually, every method transforms into no-method and this is the last method to be abandoned.

alpha wrote:

seeker242 wrote: Right mindfulness is more than just a simple awareness of washing pots and pans or driving a car.

Actually the right mindfulness is less than a simple moment of awareness.
Oushi explains it very well.
Right mindfulness is about abandoning since that which needs to be abandoned is seen as having no value whatsoever.
Right mindfulness it is a limitation and limitation is the sign of samsara.

Wrong ideas of right mindfulness are what is the limitation. Right mindfulness, itself, in not a limitation. If it were a limitation, then the Buddha would not have taught is as the way to the end of limitations. Ajahn Jayasaro, in the video I posted earlier, explains it very well.

Is not "right mindfulness" that which leads toward liberation (and the abandonment of method, i.e., letting go the raft)?

oushi wrote:

GarcherLancelot wrote: Ok then in this case what is the difference between mindfulness and "living in the future,past or present"?.. .I am not controlling my thoughts like I am paying a lot of attention and thought-stopping over nothing but just observe and more aware of whatever I am doing.. .

1. There is no difference when you are mindful.
2. Every effort, whether controlling or observing, stirs the mind. If you develop sensitivity towards those moments you will see that they appears only from time to time, stir the mind, and disappear. During such a moment, we are confident that we are aware, mindful, in control, so we want to extend this experience, as we desire them. This is the cause of delusion in the first place. But people practice it, although it's difficult and exhausting. If you stop controlling, observing and string the mind, a natural clarity will arise, which is very similar to the previous one, but totally effortless and "conceptless". This is the mindfulness, and it arises from not seeking. There are many teachings that are aimed to help practitioner pinpoint this "state", like:
"Changing phantoms, flowers in the empty sky, Why tire yourself in trying to seize them? Gain and loss, yes and no, Throw them all away in one go."
If you are not driven by gain, those short, fake moments of control have no basis to arise and mind is naturally cleared.

Wait,can you elaborate on point 1?.. .

One cannot live in future, past, or present, because it all is present. So, mindfulness is always "ON" no matter what time you are stuck in. While you are mindful you do not see any difference. Differentiation is the thing that is dropped. You are not even able to see yourself being mindful, as duality is gone. Still, your responses are perfectly accurate.

viniketa wrote:Is not "right mindfulness" that which leads toward liberation (and the abandonment of method, i.e., letting go the raft)?

No questions about it. The problem lies in the definition what is "right mindfulness", and there are many answers.

Then what is the point of meditation?Isn;t meditation like a higher level of mindfulness(the one I said earlier not your version)?Plus,letting my thoughts drift independently while I find it better for me in social situations ,it makes me more absent-minded in "technical situation"(doing something that needs attention).. .

GarcherLancelot wrote:Then what is the point of meditation?

What type of meditation?

GarcherLancelot wrote:Isn;t meditation like a higher level of mindfulness(the one I said earlier not your version)?

What do you mean by higher level of mindfulness?

GarcherLancelot wrote:Plus,letting my thoughts drift independently while I find it better for me in social situations ,it makes me more absent-minded in "technical situation"(doing something that needs attention).. .

Maybe there is something more important to do, but it has nothing to do with you being absent-minded. Actually, if you let your mind drift you make an opening for creativity, something precious when it comes to technical situations.

I think it is called mindfulness of breathing,my counsellor call me to do this,close your eyes>observe your breathing>observe any thought that arises then put them away.. .

GarcherLancelot wrote:I think it is called mindfulness of breathing,my counsellor call me to do this,close your eyes>observe your breathing>observe any thought that arises then put them away.. .

Following the breath is the very basic starter. Then you just observe, until you realize you don't have to. There is no need to put thoughts away, as they are simply released naturally. All comes to dropping desire to contrive, as nothing needs to be contrived. What is the method to do that? Method of no-method, and that is what you are trying to practice. Still, you have method for following the breathing, observing, putting thoughts away... You probably are trying to keep the breath calm and by that you disturb the natural rhythm. You build up tension by focusing on observing, and often you interfere with you thoughts, by trying to stay away. Just drop every method and sit. When idea of a method arises, don't fall for it. The only valid method is no-method. A thorn to pick other thorns from your feet. That which arises during sitting will vanish and shouldn't be a concern.

I don;t know but I try to practise the most "realistic" method I can find even if it would take longer and harder to accomplish,I think working hard works better for me than working smart,but I allow myself exceptions here and there ,so now I am considering whether if your method is realistic enough for me,because I have some ADHD tendencies and intellectualizing quite alot ,so basically if I use this method,i might end up daydreaming a lot.Btw,what is the difference between your method and how normal people would use their mind?.. .

P/S:Your meditation is more or less close your eyes and then...whatever?.. .

PP/S:I found out when I let my mind drift,I start to fear about thinking about things I shouldn't think about.. .

Btw,what is the difference between your method and how normal people would use their mind?.. .

Normally, mind is trying to figure out how to behave now and in the future. This way, people are creating methods all the time. That is the reason of inner chat in the first place. If you understand no-method, thoughts will eventually quiet down without the need of controlling them. No need for methods = no need for thoughts. If you, on the other hand, see thoughts as your enemy, something you need to get ride of by force, you will only break your teeth during meditation, and it can even be dangerous to you psychical health.

P/S:Your meditation is more or less close your eyes and then...whatever?.. .

No method. You can do whatever you want. Sit, walk, run or lie down. Let whatever happens happen, just don't create methods, ways of doing things right. "I should do it like this", "I do it wrong", "now I'm doing it right!". If nothing happens, just sit without contriving anything, reality will lead you, don't worry. At the beginning you can repeat "no method" to yourself to check if there is no method applied that you are not aware of. This way you can practice any time of the day.

Everything is already present, the only problem is in bringing effort when it is not needed. People hold the world on their shoulders like Atlas, thinking that finding a better method of doing that will ease their suffering. Not only world is not going to stop, it won't stop even if you try to stop it.