Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Whether you're exploring Buddhism for the first time or you're already on the path, feel free to ask questions of any kind here.

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Seishin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:03 pm

I don't think anyone can truly know karma, that is why it is called an unconjecturable http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
 
Posts: 1468
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Seishin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:05 pm

PS. having the wrong view of something is what being a learner is all about. We all are learning here, so we may disagree from time to time, but it's all part of the path :smile:

Gassho,
seishin
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
 
Posts: 1468
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby oushi » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:39 pm

Ervin wrote:I disagree. He is saying that I don't know the truth about karma?

Let me tell you a secret, nobody knows the truth about anything.
:toilet:
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:49 pm

So in order to be 100% percent that your vies is the truth and that you truly understand that truth you have to be enlightened. Now, if you are enlightened the only person that can know for sure that you are enlightened would be someone else who is also enlightened wich means unless you are enlightened you can't know if Sakyamuni Buddha's teachings are true or not wich means that you are not qualified to call anyone's view wrong, incorrect, incomplete, etc.

Are there any people on this forum that claim enlightenment. I would like to chat with them. But just as much as I would like to chat with them I like chatting with you.

And by the way, I respect all of you. And to me an unenlightened person is just as important as the enlightened person. Or anyone or anything.

My intentions are good and I have my own ways of realising my intentions.
Ervin
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:15 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Seishin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:16 pm

We have the teachings, in the sutras & in the form of our teachers (monks & nuns). But there are 84,000 dharma doors, different ways of understanding things. There are certain aspects that are conscidered "right" or skillful is a better word. These things can be found in the sutras and suttas or in summaries on Buddhanet. As you continue down the path you'll come to realise these things for yourself, which is why practice is a corner-stone in Buddhism.
A good teacher would be "qualified" but we can also help point in the right direction, after all that is what Buddhism is. Buddha said that his teachings are a raft to cross a river, once on the other side the raft has no use.
Also, one of our important teachings is that all sentient beings are equal :smile:

Gassho,
Seishin.

Ervin wrote:So in order to be 100% percent that your vies is the truth and that you truly understand that truth you have to be enlightened. Now, if you are enlightened the only person that can know for sure that you are enlightened would be someone else who is also enlightened wich means unless you are enlightened you can't know if Sakyamuni Buddha's teachings are true or not wich means that you are not qualified to call anyone's view wrong, incorrect, incomplete, etc.

Are there any people on this forum that claim enlightenment. I would like to chat with them. But just as much as I would like to chat with them I like chatting with you.

And by the way, I respect all of you. And to me an unenlightened person is just as important as the enlightened person. Or anyone or anything.

My intentions are good and I have my own ways of realising my intentions.
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
 
Posts: 1468
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:46 pm

oushi wrote:
Ervin wrote:I disagree. He is saying that I don't know the truth about karma?

Let me tell you a secret, nobody knows the truth about anything.
:toilet:


Thats not true! I know for sure that water satisfies my thirst and I also know that I don't want to be a slave to being thirsty(right now, thirst is a metaphor and literal meaning) forever.

And I know that I am the kind of a person who if he can somehow will help others towards less suffering in this life.

Thanks
Ervin
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:15 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:46 pm

Ervin wrote:If you believe that karma exists you give it power that way. If you stop believing in karma then it stops existing. You create your world to a great extent with your beliefs or should I say expectations.


You are correct. The fruits of actions comes from one's view. If the view is attachment, then the action of clinging will lead to the fruit of suffering. If the view is no attachment, then actions will be free from suffering. But, what you are missing is the view. The view is not a belief for or against something. It is beyond accepting and rejecting.
deepbluehum
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby oushi » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:11 pm

Ervin wrote:
oushi wrote:
Ervin wrote:I disagree. He is saying that I don't know the truth about karma?

Let me tell you a secret, nobody knows the truth about anything.
:toilet:


Thats not true! I know for sure that water satisfies my thirst and I also know that I don't want to be a slave to being thirsty(right now, thirst is a metaphor and literal meaning) forever.

And I know that I am the kind of a person who if he can somehow will help others towards less suffering in this life.

Thanks

What is water, what is thirst, what is "I"? If you have answers, repeat the process of asking the question "what is".
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby dakini_boi » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:11 pm

Ervin wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:It's not enough to "stop believing in karma." You have to actually purify your perception to the point that you actually know karma is an illusion, without a doubt. That's what dharma is for. But in the meantime, to just say "I don't believe in karma, therefore it doesn't exist," you are fooling yourself. It's like saying "I believe I can fly." If this is so, then jump off a cliff, and that will indicate whether or not this belief is actually true for you.


So, its impossible that I might be enlightened? That I might have reached true enlightenment? It's impossible that I might be that person who knows the truth? Is that what you are saying? How do you know that I am fooling my self?

What, because I am not a famous monk or because I might not share your beliefs and or understanding I am fooling my self?

I invite others to answer this question if they wish so?


I apologize, I shouldn't have implied that you are unenlightened. You are correct, I have no idea what your level of realization is.

What I meant to say (or, actually, to add to what you had said) was that it doesn't just depend on belief (which is based on concepts) but on realization. If you actually realize the illusory nature of karma, then you are correct, karma will have no power over you. And you should be able to do things which seem to contradict the general idea of cause and effect, such as walk through walls or appear in two places simultaneously. Some people can do this.

Anyway, perhaps my original argument was merely semantic - "belief" vs. "realization." In Buddha dharma, realization is considered far more important, and any beliefs that we can cultivate are just a stepping stone so that we may realize the truth.
dakini_boi
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:51 pm

I don't believe in the literal Buddhist interpretation of karma. However, if you do then to a certain extent you will ne creating it. In this world no one can walk through solid walls, wether you are enlightened or uninlightened.

Enlightenment doesn't give you black magic powers(A metaphor), it simply proves to you the truth of the ultimate, infinite goodness that always was, from wich everything sprung wich frees you from many prisons that we trap ourselves into.

My understanding is that most of the people who look into Buddhism for answers are people wh are interested in peace in the end. I am telling you what I know. And I know that I can not ever know everything, because no one knows everything. And I am content with knowing that.

If something happens to an uninlightened person that would 100% lead to death in this life, then the exactly same situation would end the life of an person who is enlightene

I am not doing good because I think I have to. I know that I don't have to be good to achive peace in the end. I do it because I freely choose to do so.
I generally eat vegan food, not because I think I have to eat only plant based food most of the time, otherwise I am evil, but because I freely choose to do so
There is apsolutely no need to know the mechanisms about everything in order to have peace in the end. Relax, enjoy yourself exploring spirituality, Have fun. You don't have to "cary the cross"(metaphor from the Bible if you don't mind).
Ervin
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:15 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby seeker242 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:21 pm

Ervin wrote:Well, to me that means then that enlightened beings in this world don't have free will to chose between good and evil actions. Means that they can only do good. Is that freedom, to not have free will?


Thoughts


To not have the things that cause evil actions, in your mind, (AKA, ignorance, greed, hatred) yes that is freedom, freedom from suffering.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
User avatar
seeker242
 
Posts: 732
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:33 pm

That's true Seeker. I only find it hard to believe that thats possible to achive fully while on planet earth. And if you where to have glimpses of that feeling while on Earth I don't think it would be constant for the rest of this life.
If you had glimpses it would be that infinitely good entity making you aware of what might come if thats what you choose when the time comes to transform.

Thanks
Ervin
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:15 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby viniketa » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:44 pm

Ervin wrote:...if you where to have glimpses of that feeling while on Earth...


Just a suggestion, why not wait until you have a 'glimpse' of enlightenment before making a determination about that?

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
User avatar
viniketa
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:39 am
Location: USA

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:17 am

Ervin wrote:In this world no one can walk through solid walls, wether you are enlightened or uninlightened.


Boy are you in for a shocker.
deepbluehum
 
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:03 am

deepbluehum wrote:
Ervin wrote:In this world no one can walk through solid walls, wether you are enlightened or uninlightened.


Boy are you in for a shocker.


[chuckles]

:anjali:

See, I have this nagging suspicion that emptiness isn't this nice big om in the sky.

It's like everything suddenly drops away.
Karma Dondrup Tashi
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby seeker242 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:08 pm

Ervin wrote:That's true Seeker. I only find it hard to believe that thats possible to achive fully while on planet earth. And if you where to have glimpses of that feeling while on Earth I don't think it would be constant for the rest of this life.
If you had glimpses it would be that infinitely good entity making you aware of what might come if thats what you choose when the time comes to transform.

Thanks


Hard to believe that it's possible, perhaps yes. But at the same time, also hard to believe that it's impossible. However, if one believes it is impossible, then are you not setting up a block to it, that is entirely of your own mind's making? An entirely self created block? Why would one block themselves like this? Good question, IMO! :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
User avatar
seeker242
 
Posts: 732
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:59 pm

Dear Ervin,

I always find that turning to the words of the Buddha himself is the best form of clarification.
Cetana Sutta: Intention
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1995–2012

Staying at Savatthi... [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses about:[1] This is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses [about something], this is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

Notes
1.
The seven obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the obsession of ignorance.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:namaste:
PS Contrary to what everybody here has been saying karma is quite simple to understand: positive/wholesome actions (karma or kamma), given correct conditions, ripen as positive results and negative/unwholesome actions, given correct conditions, ripen as negative results. The manner in which they will ripen further depends on the motivation for the action, if the action is carried out to completion and the regret/satisfaction that one feels regarding the action they have commited. What is impossible for us to know is the exact outcome for a specific action, only a Buddha can see all the factors involved.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10289
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:16 pm

oushi wrote:What is water, what is thirst, what is "I"? If you have answers, repeat the process of asking the question "what is".
Dear Oushi,
the reason you are posting nonsensical statements that people can not understand is due to the fact that you have fallen into the trap that most practitioners stumble across during their practice:
EMPTINESS ARISING As AN ENEMY
Mahamudra: The Ocean of True Meaning, Karmapa Wangchug Dorje, pp227-228
Lesson 70
When you look at the mind in order to investigate its true
nature and thereby discover that it does not really exist, you
might think, "Since all phenomena are nothing but emptiness,
what is the use of acting wholesomely with body, speech
and mind. Wholesome and harmful actions, as well as cause
and effect of actions, all this does not exist in the least:'

This grasping that there is nothing to reject or counteract is
called destructive talk. Since this is wrong view and action,
one speaks of the error of emptiness arising as enemy. In
the Mulamadhyamakakarika it says: "Unintelligent beings
destroy themselves with a wrong view of emptiness. It is like
wrongly holding a poisonous snake or wrongly practicing a
magic formula."
Intelligent beings understand that nothing really exists,
without being contaminated by the fault of viewing emptiness
as nothingness. They are aware of the unfailing pnnciple
of the relative level, where the law of cause and effect of
wholesome and harmful actions and interdependent origination
is effective in the unhindered dynamic expression
of appearances. Even if their realization is as vast as space,
they are extremely conscientious in their conduct and train
to unite the two levels, being concerned about auspicious
coincidence. They train themselves on the path of union of
view and conduct without ever moving out of emptiness. One
may argue, "But was it not explained before that one should
be without rejection and acceptance?" Yes, that was explained
to dissolve the grasping at rejection and counteracting. This
present explanation takes into consideration the relative
aspect and is supposed to prevent beginners who take these
concepts too literally, to get into destructive talk.

It is a problematic trap because at first glance it seems to be liberatory, but then traps are always disguised as something inoffensive or agreeable.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10289
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:45 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Dear Oushi,
the reason you are posting nonsensical statements that people can not understand is due to the fact that you have fallen into the trap that most practitioners stumble across during their practice:

You seem to not see the difference between view of emptiness and "not knowing". I never said that water, thirst, or "I" does not exist, did I? What would be the point of jumping from one extreme to another? So, you accusation missed completely. People think that they can know things by naming them, and are looking for this knowledge in written or spoken words. By honestly admitting that you don't know anything, you do not fall into a trap, but you liberate yourself from desire to know something that is unknowable, desire that makes karma. Do you know who you are? Because I have no idea who I am. I have some "stickers" like name, look, history, but those are only empty labels. As I said before, there is nothing to know, and no one that knows.
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby lobster » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:17 pm

Creating positive karma is a good plan for oneself and others.
Creating difficulties is a mark of ignorance. We are free to cycle through ignorance.
Eternally if we wish. :rolleye:

The enlightened tend to treat others as of greater importance.
Some even treat us ignoramuses as if we are worthy of ending our self imposed negative karma. :twothumbsup:
User avatar
lobster
 
Posts: 952
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Exploring Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot], Kim O'Hara and 6 guests

>