Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Sonny
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by Sonny »

"There're two kinds of Buddha nature. One kind is permanent. One kind is impermanent. The empty nature of our own mind is permanent; the clear and knowing nature of our mind is impermanent. The clear and knowing nature is just our ability to perceive objects -- for objects to arise and for us to engage in them – the thing that makes that process happen. This is impermanent, because each moment of mind is clear and knowing and yet each moment is different from the previous moment." - Bhikshuni Thubten Chodron - http://www.thubtenchodron.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Son of Buddha
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by Son of Buddha »

Sonny wrote:"There're two kinds of Buddha nature. One kind is permanent. One kind is impermanent. The empty nature of our own mind is permanent; the clear and knowing nature of our mind is impermanent. The clear and knowing nature is just our ability to perceive objects -- for objects to arise and for us to engage in them – the thing that makes that process happen. This is impermanent, because each moment of mind is clear and knowing and yet each moment is different from the previous moment." - Bhikshuni Thubten Chodron - http://www.thubtenchodron.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the Buddha nature is not-Empty,it is not empty of itself but empty of all defilements-Nirvana sutra
Tashi Rabnang
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by Tashi Rabnang »

Rangjung Dorje tells us in The Tathagatagarbhashastra, In the second line of the shastra quoted the words of the Buddha from a sutra,

“It is pure by nature, and has the quality of permanence.”

This means that the Tathagatagarbha, the Buddha nature, has two qualities. Some people think that it is not faultless, but this is not so. It is immaculate and has no defect whatsoever. It is also permanent, i.e., it is continuously present, at all times, and therefore has the quality of permanence.

Four qualities of the Buddha nature have been presented: It is beginningless, ends samsara, is by nature pure, and is permanent. One may wonder why it cannot be seen. The Karmapa tells us that
“It is unseen, because it is obscured by a beginningless covering.”

That is to say, it is covered and therefore cannot be seen, the fifth characteristic of the Tathagatagarbha, which is compared to a golden statue that has been concealed.
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Grigoris
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by Grigoris »

Tashi Rabnang wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:06 pm“It is unseen, because it is obscured by a beginningless covering.”
If something is beginningless, that means it is endless. In which case you are positing a permanent ignorance.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Rick
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by Rick »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:22 pm If something is beginningless, that means it is endless. In which case you are positing a permanent ignorance.
Just for comparison <NOT for a food fight!>, traditional Advaita teaches that all experiences/phenomena have a beginning and an end, except: Ignorance has an end <enlightenment> but no beginning, and enlightenment has a beginning <ignorance> but no end.

Some Buddhist schools also believe that samsara has an end but no beginning, and nirvana a beginning but no end ... right?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Rangjung Dorje tells us in The Tathagatagarbhashastra, In the second line of the shastra quoted the words of the Buddha from a sutra,
As historical background to this it should be mentioned that Rangjung Dorje (Karmapa III) was considered to have established the Shentong view in the Karma Kagyu school. So quotess from him will tend to be in accord with that view.

Others will disagree.
**********
Personally I like HHDL’s translator’s of the term “a-temporal”. That fits the bill nicely without stepping on any land mines. It’s also is suggestive of the non-linear nature of time. I believe that’s a Kalacakra thing.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Queequeg
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by Queequeg »

Tashi Rabnang wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:06 pm to say, it is covered and therefore cannot be seen, the fifth characteristic of the Tathagatagarbha, which is compared to a golden statue that has been concealed.
I don't know anything about the history of this view.

Seems to me, Buddha Nature can't be seen, not because its covered, but because its the very thing that does the concealing.

As a tangent, Zhiyi, the founder of the Tiantai/Tendai tradition explained Buddhanature as threefold - Buddhanature as Direct Cause, Buddhanature as Conditional Cause, and Buddhanature as Complete Cause.

Direct Cause is our true aspect, whether enlightened or deluded. Its the real nature of our mind and is synonymous with the fact that, something is happening. (sorry I lack a more technical way to explain it at the moment.) This might be what is described as Buddhanature in principle.

Conditional Cause are the various practices, learning, cultivation of conducive dispositions, etc. that we undertake to perceive Buddhanature. These are considered Buddhanature, identical to Buddhanature because, as described by Direct Cause, Buddhanature is what we are, and nothing we are is outside of it, especially the means by which we awaken to it.

Complete Cause is the wisdom of knowing Buddhanature. Its inherent, meaning we already know it, because we are living it, but because we're so used to it we don't recognize it. Wisdom is also the function we call the Buddha, the function of revealing the Buddhanature to one who is not aware of it, who at times appears as what we refer to as The Buddha, but is also the nature of reality that is self revealing.

To relate it to a golden statue, one simply does not recognize its a golden statue because one is not aware how precious gold is.

Different tradition so maybe we're not all talking about the same thing.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I don't know anything about the history of this view.
It’s from the “The Uttaratantra” by Maitreya/Asanga. There are a series of analogies for Buddha Nature given. Each has its own significance. Probably the best known one is the sun behind the clouds.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Queequeg
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by Queequeg »

smcj wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:58 pm
I don't know anything about the history of this view.
It’s from the “The Uttaratantra” by Maitreya/Asanga. There are a series of analogies for Buddha Nature given. Each has its own significance. Probably the best known one is the sun behind the clouds.
Ah. Well duality between true and false in Yogacara would seem to explain the premise of those analogies.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Sherab
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by Sherab »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:53 pm
smcj wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:58 pm
I don't know anything about the history of this view.
It’s from the “The Uttaratantra” by Maitreya/Asanga. There are a series of analogies for Buddha Nature given. Each has its own significance. Probably the best known one is the sun behind the clouds.
Ah. Well duality between true and false in Yogacara would seem to explain the premise of those analogies.
I think the analogies were meant only to convey the meaning that something is hidden. But some may think that the analogies also convey the meaning of how something is hidden. And that is where all the confusion and problem starts.
stevie
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Re: Buddha nature misunderstood as atman.

Post by stevie »

smcj wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:18 pm Personally I like HHDL’s translator’s of the term “a-temporal”. That fits the bill nicely without stepping on any land mines.
yes. Strangely even 'timeless' is misconceived as 'permanent' at times. So a-temporal seems to be a save rendering.
I've been tempted to say: 'sure, since emptiness is atemporal.' thus equating buddha nature and emptiness. But then ... how could one say 'emptiness is this or that'. That would amount to a view of emptiness.
Nevertheless honestly I think I do equate 'buddha nature' and 'emptiness'. Fabricating a view of any of these two expressions would be counterproductive.
smcj wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:18 pm As historical background to this it should be mentioned that Rangjung Dorje (Karmapa III) was considered to have established the Shentong view in the Karma Kagyu school. So quotess from him will tend to be in accord with that view.
From my perspective emptiness of self necessarily implies emptiness of other because self and other are mutually dependent. If I would want to seperate one emptiness from another then I would have fallen prey to a view of emptiness.
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