Vegetarianism in Zen, Chan, etc.

[seeker242]

I'm curious as to why Japanese zen traditions did not "import", so to speak, the practice of vegetarianism as did the other zen traditions? Chan or Chinese zen is vegetarian, Korean zen is, Vietnamese zen is but Japanese zen is not. Is this just a cultural thing? Was there some particular historical event as to why this is the case? Just curious about this difference.

[Indrajala]

I'm curious as to why Japanese zen traditions did not "import", so to speak, the practice of vegetarianism as did the other zen traditions? Chan or Chinese zen is vegetarian, Korean zen is, Vietnamese zen is but Japanese zen is not. Is this just a cultural thing? Was there some particular historical event as to why this is the case? Just curious about this difference.

There was a strong culture of vegetarianism in Japanese Buddhism until the 19th century when western influences, particularly protestant, rapidly had much of Japanese Buddhism (including zen) drop a lot of age old traditions like celibacy and vegetarianism.

Generally speaking vegetarianism and Buddhism in Japan went hand in hand, though of course exceptions will be found. Anyone with just the bodhisattva precepts via the Brahma Net Sutra will swear off all meat.

Contemporary Japanese have completely forgotten their old vegetarianism. In Japanese Zen I think people are aware that they used to be vegetarian, but it is now considered irrelevant and unimportant. It is quite abnormal in Japan to be vegetarian and in many ways anti-social. Schools all have lunch programs for example and having your child abstain from eating any meat or fish would be not only inconvenient, but make for a social handicap. The same can be said about the religious world as well. When you go out to dinner with your superiors you're generally supposed to eat whatever they eat or for that matter the group is having. Japanese culture is very keen on this sort of thing. If you go for sushi or yakiniku (BBQ), you only raise questions and make for social friction if you deviate from the flock and start asking for special things.

So when the majority of your group are doing something, you just have to go along with it, even if your conscience or scriptures say otherwise. This is why Japanese Zen has a dirty past when it comes to the early part of the 20th century and the wars the Japanese Empire was fighting.

Before WWII I suspect being vegetarian and a priest would have been commended and acceptable, but after WWII General Douglas McArthur's wife introduced the beef stew and bread program for schools and from there the nation became quite accustomed to eating meat regularly. It became the norm for everyone to eat meat, and as such you just had to go with the flow if you wanted to fit in. Unlike in western cultures in many cases, in Japan if you don't fit in it usually does lead to a lot of problems, social friction and lack of opportunities. The nail that sticks out gets hammered down as they say.

[shel]

I am not personally supporting or decrying the eating of meat, by the way. Rather, I am simply questioning what is or is not out of line with scripture.

When choosing whether or not to eat an other sentient being do not look to scripture, look to your own heart.

[Huifeng]

I'm curious as to why Japanese zen traditions did not "import", so to speak, the practice of vegetarianism as did the other zen traditions? Chan or Chinese zen is vegetarian, Korean zen is, Vietnamese zen is but Japanese zen is not. Is this just a cultural thing? Was there some particular historical event as to why this is the case? Just curious about this difference.

Just for the record, though most probably know already - It's not just Chinese Chan that advocates vegetarianism, it is considered a virtue for all forms of Chinese Buddhism, compulsory for the monastics and very common among serious lay practitioners.

~~ Huifeng

[Adumbra]

I'm curious as to why Japanese zen traditions did not "import", so to speak, the practice of vegetarianism as did the other zen traditions? Chan or Chinese zen is vegetarian, Korean zen is, Vietnamese zen is but Japanese zen is not. Is this just a cultural thing? Was there some particular historical event as to why this is the case? Just curious about this difference.

I suspect it may have something to do with Japan being a group of islands. With so much coastline, fishing is the natural way to make a living. Strict vegetarianism would seem strange and impractical in a country where seafood is so plentiful. An idiosyncrasy that monks could indulge in, but not the average person.

[plwk]

This little cutey bit from wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism
Japan initially received Chinese Buddhism through Korea in 6th century. And in 9th century, Emperor Saga made a decree prohibiting meat consumption except fish and birds. This remained the dietary habit of Japanese until the introduction of European dietary customs in the 19th century.
Again around the 9th century, two Japanese monks (Kūkai and Saichō) introduced Vajrayana Buddhism into Japan and this soon became the dominant Buddhism among the nobility. In particular, Saichō, who founded the Tendai sect of Japanese Buddhism, reduced the number of vinaya code to 66. (Enkai 円戒)
During the 12th century, a number of monks from Tendai sects founded new sects (Zen, Pure Land) and de-emphasised vegetarianism, Nichiren Buddhism today likewise de-emphasises vegetarianism. However, Nichiren himself practiced vegetarianism. Chan and Zen do tend generally to look favourably upon vegetarianism. The Shingon sect founded by Kūkai also does not prescribe a vegetarian diet for its monks.

Vegetarianism and Vegetarians in Japan
KYOTO: The Capital of Zen Vegetarian Cuisine

Just for the record, though most probably know already - It's not just Chinese Chan that advocates vegetarianism, it is considered a virtue for all forms of Chinese Buddhism, compulsory for the monastics and very common among serious lay practitioners.

Ah! but Fa Shi, there are some Chinese Buddhist organisations (which shall remain anonymous here) that tie up the lay refuge/precepts with the immediate obligation of practicing lifelong vegetarianism. There was a fellow as I recall back in E-Sangha who in a private chat expressed concern over this due to social reasons and etc, as the intended organisation to be part of has this kind of provision. So I advised that if one cannot take up this obligation immediately, there are other organisations that allow the gradual path on vegetarianism, so it's not an issue. In the end, the fellow still joined that one and have not heard from since

[Huifeng]

Just for the record, though most probably know already - It's not just Chinese Chan that advocates vegetarianism, it is considered a virtue for all forms of Chinese Buddhism, compulsory for the monastics and very common among serious lay practitioners.

Ah! but Fa Shi, there are some Chinese Buddhist organisations (which shall remain anonymous here) that tie up the lay refuge/precepts with the immediate obligation of practicing lifelong vegetarianism. There was a fellow as I recall back in E-Sangha who in a private chat expressed concern over this due to social reasons and etc, as the intended organisation to be part of has this kind of provision. So I advised that if one cannot take up this obligation immediately, there are other organisations that allow the gradual path on vegetarianism, so it's not an issue. In the end, the fellow still joined that one and have not heard from since

Hi,

Yes, indeed, some Chinese Buddhist organizations do just that. I note that my own Shifu, Ven. Master Hsing Yun, very frequently points out during Three Refuge and Five Precepts ceremonies that vegetarianism is not part of it, though it is a good thing if one wishes to.

I sometimes kind of joke that vegetarianism is like the "sixth" precept of Chinese Buddhism, ie. the next most important after the basic five.

~~ Huifeng

[LastLegend]

Vegetarism is not required. But it makes absolutely sense to be a vegetarian in context of Mahayana, compassion, and Bodhisattva path. That says if we really have compassion for animals as other sentient beings, we would not eat them.

[Indrajala]

Topic split. See new thread for other discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=8949

[Sara H]

The Order Of Buddhist Contemplatives is vegetarian.

The monks are vegetarian and most lay people are too.

Generally speaking, most of the people will only eat meat if they have some sortof medical condition or medical necessity that requires it.

And, then, they just sort of bow to it and are grateful for it and mindful of it and try to do as little harm as possible given their medical/health requirements.

That's been my experience anyway.

"We eat, lest we become lean and die."

In Gasshō,
Sara H