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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Case 33 Mumonkan


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:22 pm 
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Do you care to elaborate?

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Is this it? Koans should be relatively easy after Kevin Solway and Lama Zoltar :

"Mumonkan - Case 33: Neither Mind nor Buddha


A monk asked Baso, "What is the Buddha?" Baso replied, "Not mind, not Buddha."

Mumon's Comments If anyone understands what Baso said, he has mastered Zen.

If you meet a sword master on the road, give him the sword. Unless you meet a poet on the road, do not offer a poem. If you meet a man, tell him the three quarters of the Way, and never tell him the rest."

I'm going to need some time....


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:16 pm 
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Another translation offers this:

If you can see through this, your Zen training is complete.

Present a sword to a swordsman;
Don't offer a poem unless you meet a poet.
When speaking say one third of it;
Don't give the whole thing at once.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:49 pm 
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:techproblem:

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NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Monk: "What is the Buddha?"
Baso: "Not mind, not Buddha."
Mr. G: ::silence::

Now give me my certified Zen master certificate.

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    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:20 pm 
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Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Although the tomatoes have possibilities......


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:33 pm 
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Can I have the certification now?

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NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:45 pm 
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Definitely not you Last Legend.

If you are having a temper tantrum and throwing your computer across the room, the first thing you need to do is grow up.

Try again in a few years.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:43 am 
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MalaBeads wrote:
Another translation offers this:

If you can see through this, your Zen training is complete.

Present a sword to a swordsman;
Don't offer a poem unless you meet a poet.
When speaking say one third of it;
Don't give the whole thing at once.

Maybe it means that when we communicate with others there is a tendency to say everything that pops into our mind, but it's important to be mindful of where the other person is at and be helpful. We have a tendency to believe this or that, but the only reality is what is helpful.
:namaste:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:53 am 
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Kyosan,
What you say is not without merit but the koan is more than the personal.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:00 am 
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Yes sir. Now can I have the certification.

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NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:05 am 
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LastLegend wrote:
Yes sir. Now can I have the certification.


Granted:

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    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:57 am 
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Quote:
If you meet a man, tell him the three quarters of the Way, and never tell him the rest.

No wonder they spend the other 1/4 of their time on forums like this to figure out...

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TWTB BIES OCB DDM BWF


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:22 am 
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MalaBeads asked: "Why not teach buddhism, instead of your mind?"

Priceless.

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Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:35 am 
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plwk,
Koan study permeates every waking moment, not just the time spent online. Only the newest of students will spend that time trying to "figure it out".


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:01 am 
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Mazu generally taught that mind is buddha. Then there was neither mind, nor buddha. Dazhu Huihai was quite satisfied with the first teaching, others preferred the latter. But without understanding the meaning it's pointless to debate the words. The meaning obviously is to see mind's true nature, what else is there? Then look at the different teaching methods used.

A monk asked, "Master, Why do you say that Mind is Buddha?" Mazu said, "To stop babies from crying." The monk said, "What do you say when they stop crying?" Mazu said, "Neither Mind, nor Buddha." The monk asked, "Without using either of these statements, how would you instruct someone ?" Mazu said, "I would say to him that it's not a thing." The monk asked, "If suddenly you met someone who was in the midst of it, then what?" Mazu said, "I would teach them to realize the great Way."

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:17 pm 
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Changed my mind, Astus. Or perhaps I should say, I decided to share more of what I actually understand this case to be about, instead of giving way automatically to someone else's viewpoint.

So far, the process shown here has been interesting o say the least. The first responses were of a spiritual materialist nature: wanting "credentials" as CTR would say ("give me a certificate"). The second set of responses have been of an emotional nature - responses about the 'crying baby'. But this case is not about credentials or about emotion. It is about method, and the completion of training.

And I disagree with you Astus, that it comes down to a preference of method. Mazu changed his teaching methods from "This very mind is Buddha" to "Neither mind, nor Buddha" for a very good reason. Whether he did it because of his own evolution as a teacher, or because he saw the deleterious effects of teaching as if "this very mind is Buddha" wrought, we'll never know.

I think Ta-mei is very self-indulgent by continuing to assert "this very mind is Buddha". When you teach that way, you are in great danger of mistaking content for process. " Neither mind, nor Buddha" denies the practitioner the opportunity to get lost in content. This is an extremely important step.

Wu-men understands this with his comment, "if you can see through this clearly, your Zen training is complete."

This case is not about certification or about emotional reactions. It is about not getting lost in content as a final step of Zen training. This ability is what distinguishes a Zen master from a Zen teacher who leads people astray. Interestingly enough, it was dzogchen that clarified this for me.

End of post.


Last edited by MalaBeads on Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Astus' quote reminds me of this section of Eihei Koroku
Quote:
Zen masters in India said that mindlessness is Buddha. A Zen master of China said that mind itself is Buddha. He was not saying that the mind that jumps from one thing to another and the intellect that gallops off in any direction are what Buddha is.
Students in recent times often misunderstand this point. Some say, "Once you return to it, mind itself is Buddha, and there is not another life." If you understand in this way, you are the same as nihilistic heretics.

"Mind is Buddha" -
what religious teaching is this?
If you want to stop a child's crying,
give it a clout.

p.66, Rational Zen, The Mind of Dogen Zenji, tr. T. Cleary

Best wishes
Lars


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:53 pm 
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Chan awakening need to be certified by already awakened masters and buddhas are predicted by other Buddhas.

Or else you'd have sheet load of people on the internet claiming they know deez and they know dat. Not to mention more "suspcious" gurus that deludes people, and you can't even diss them because you'll probably goto hell.

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