Dogen translation in English

Dogen translation in English

Postby zangskar » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:56 pm

Which one do you recommend?

I have Cleary's Rational Zen which I like a lot, but it's just a small selection.

Thanks
Lars
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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby Josef » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:03 pm

Dogen's Extensive Record
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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby Astus » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:09 pm

As an intro to Dogen I'd recommend the Shobogenzo-Zuimonki, then the Shobogenzo, and only after that the Eihei Koroku.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby zangskar » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:04 pm

Thanks, Astus and Nangwa.

I found these complete translations so far, I don't know if there are more (more complete ones as opposed to selections):

Shobogenzo-Zuimonki
Shobogenzo Zuimonki is translated by the Soto Zen net at
http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/common_ ... index.html
the translator is not stated
versus
The Primer of Soto Zen: Shobogenzo Zuimonki (East West Center Book), tr. by Reiho Masunaga
University of Hawaii Press

Shobogenzo
Gudo Nishijima and Chodo Cross' Master Dogen's Shobogenzo in several volumes.
There are some sites that claim there is a free online pdf of this work, but the links I found were actually for the next one. No wait: https://www.bdkamerica.org/default.aspx?MPID=81
versus
"SHOBOGENZO The Treasure House of the Eye of the True Teaching" by Eihei Dogen
Translated by Reverend Master Hubert Nearman, Order of Buddhist Contemplatives
Shasta Abbey Press, Mount Shasta, California 2007 ISBN: 978-0-930066-27-7
http://www.shastaabbey.org/teachings-pu ... genzo.html
versus
Kazuaki Tanahashi, tr. Treasury of the True Dharma Eye: Zen Master Dogen's Shobo Genzo
versus
Nishiyama and John Stevens (out of print though)

Eihei Koroku
Dogen's Extensive Record: A Translation of the Eihei Koroku by Taigen Dan Leighton
Wisdom publications.
The only one there is?

If it matters which one I get, which do you recommend? Free books are nice of course but I am not a big fan of reading for hours on a computer monitor and if instead of printing 1000 pages I might as well buy it. :)

Best wishes
Lars
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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby Astus » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:40 pm

As I'm not a Dogen scholar or Japanese expert, my best advice is to check the different translations and choose the one you like. The Zuimonki was also translated by Thomas Cleary. As for the Shobogenzo, the Nishijima translation seems to be more literal while the Shasta Abbey's try to be more of an explaining translation (thus a bit easier to read first). You can get both online actually, the Nishijima tr. is on the Numata's website: BDK Digital Books

In my opinion, however, if you want a fine introduction to Dogen, I recommend Carl Bielefeldt's "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation".
The Soto Zen Text Project is another valuable source for alternative translations.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby zangskar » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:31 pm

Thanks again

I found this essay and link collection of use also: http://www.thezensite.com/MainPages/Dog ... hings.html

Best wishes
Lars
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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby fugen » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:58 pm

Hi.

First, i am no Scholar of Dogen, and no expert on him either, but there are several interpretations of the shobogenzo in english. Most often written/talked about is the Nishijima version, the english textproject verion, the Shasta abbey version and the Tanahashi version. There are benefits and flaws to them all, and i would suggest reading at leats two simultaneously for the most benefit. The three first is, i believe, available free online, the last one is only viewable if you buy it.

The texts most often recommended as starters in the shobogenzo is Genjokoan and Bendowa. I would also like to add texts not in the Shobogenzo, one from the eihei shingi, the Tenzokyokun, instructions for the cook, of which there are several different version free online, and of course Fukanzazengi, Dogens Recommendation of Zazen.

Now a caution in reading Dogen, he is somewhat of an Jazzmusician playing with words and meanings like notes in a jamsession, creating some very heavy music at times, so take it easy, you don't have to grasp everything all at once, and enjoy the ride.

Thank you for your practice.

Gassho
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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby Astus » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:41 pm

fugen wrote:Now a caution in reading Dogen, he is somewhat of an Jazzmusician playing with words and meanings like notes in a jamsession, creating some very heavy music at times, so take it easy, you don't have to grasp everything all at once, and enjoy the ride.


I wouldn't call him a jazz musician, rather a 13th century Japanese highly educated in his own culture and Buddhist terminology, a knowledge that very few possess today.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby fugen » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:07 pm

Astus wrote:
fugen wrote:Now a caution in reading Dogen, he is somewhat of an Jazzmusician playing with words and meanings like notes in a jamsession, creating some very heavy music at times, so take it easy, you don't have to grasp everything all at once, and enjoy the ride.


I wouldn't call him a jazz musician, rather a 13th century Japanese highly educated in his own culture and Buddhist terminology, a knowledge that very few possess today.


Hi.

Yes, i stand corrected he is like an jazzmusician playing with words then, alas as english is not my native tongue the words slip sometimes, thank you for the help.

Gassho
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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby zangskar » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:24 pm

Thanks for your input, Fugen, it's appreciated!

I am now reading the cooking instructions and they are great. :twothumbsup:

Best wishes
Lars
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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby Sara H » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:25 am

Rev. Hubert Nearman (Dr. Mark J. Nearman)
Did a complete translation of the Shobogenzo from a Monastic perspective with doctoral expertise.

It is available here, for free as a .pdf download:

http://www.shastaabbey.org/pdf/shoboAll.pdf

or in individual chapters also as a .pdf available for download here:

http://www.shastaabbey.org/teachings-publications_shobogenzo.html

In Gassho,

Sara H
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

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Re: Dogen translation in English

Postby Miguel » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:47 am

If you are going to get Thomas Cleary's translations of dogen, you can also check his series of books "classics of buddhism an zen", volumes 2, 3 and 4:

http://www.amazon.com/Classics-Buddhism ... sm+and+zen

volume 2 includes shobogenzo (13 chapters of it), volume 3 has the "rational zen", and volume 4 includes the "record of things heard", which is the shobogenzo zuimonki. You already have "rational zen", but if you are thinking of buying either the shobogenzo or the "record of things heard", you could just get volumes 2 and 4, since they don't cost that much more, and contain a lot of other interesting material translated.
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