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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:43 pm 
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buddha/enlightenment:

non "state of mind"(no mind) before "thought" arises

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keeping the mind in perfect tranquility and free from any attachment to appearances."
"So I say to you -
This is how to contemplate our conditioned existence in this fleeting world:"
"Like a tiny drop of dew, or a bubble floating in a stream;
Like a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
Or a flickering lamp, an illusion, a phantom, or a dream."
"So is all conditioned existence to be seen."
Thus spoke Buddha.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:07 pm 
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Astus wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
You are trying to verbalize the mind?


That's what is called "teaching" and "studying" in Buddhism.


Really? I think you should focus on your meditation.

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NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:36 pm 
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LastLegend wrote:
Astus wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
You are trying to verbalize the mind?


That's what is called "teaching" and "studying" in Buddhism.


Really? I think you should focus on your meditation.


Without the proper view meditation is pointless.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Without the proper view meditation is pointless.


Yes but if you want to experience emptiness, then you need to focus on meditation.

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NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:23 pm 
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I don't think that Buddhism is much different from any other field of knowledge. You learn about it, you understand it, you put it into practice. Trying to put something into practice what one has no or minimal information of is simply ineffective. So when it is said, "do meditation", it has to be clear what that meditation actually means and what the process of it is. If one knows only as much as to count the inhalation and exhalation that it is that much one can develop and attain. If one knows how to go from counting breath to eventually gaining insight into emptiness then that path one can go through. Ignorance is the root of suffering, on every level.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:34 am 
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Astus wrote:
I don't think that Buddhism is much different from any other field of knowledge. You learn about it, you understand it, you put it into practice. Trying to put something into practice what one has no or minimal information of is simply ineffective. So when it is said, "do meditation", it has to be clear what that meditation actually means and what the process of it is. If one knows only as much as to count the inhalation and exhalation that it is that much one can develop and attain. If one knows how to go from counting breath to eventually gaining insight into emptiness then that path one can go through. Ignorance is the root of suffering, on every level.


I am not disputing that. I am talking about folks who have some of understanding of teachings but still love to talk about emptiness as if it can be reached through intellect. Dwelling the in delusion of what emptiness is or is not is not gonna help with meditation. We have faith in the teaching of emptiness and similar teachings and some ideas about emptiness, but to truly understand it we have to experience it by becoming enlightened ourselves.

Yes, you have to practice and yes you have to study the teachings...but philosophizing about emptiness is not gonna do any good. Why? Because emptiness is for us to experience but not for us to discuss. That's the goal. Yes, you can practice without bothering with learning emptiness. Theravadins don't believe in emptiness. As long as you understand the basic teaching that there is suffering, and to end the cause of suffering through whatever method of meditation you are employing. My meditation is NAM MO A DI DA PHAT. What is your meditation? Meditation is the practice of detaching from the 3 karma of body, speech, and mind.

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NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:22 am 
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Location: Bangkok Thailand
:smile:
I think I told the story before of the fool who while looking into a miirror acidentally dropped the mirror and broke it.
He was sure that dropping that mirror had shattrered his head.
So he spent a lot of time running around looking for another mirror to see if his head was still there and not broken.
When he finally found a mirror, he was relieved to find that he still had his head after all.
That made him very happy.
Of course, you and I know his head was really there all along, don't we.
:smile:

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Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:27 pm 
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The Buddha always emphasized a three-step approach to practicing his teachings: listening (studying), reflecting, and meditating. He did not say, “Listen and then meditate.” However, it is exactly the middle stage of reflection that is often missing in the practice of Buddhists. As students of Buddhism, we are required to first gain sufficient access to the relevant information about Buddhist theory and practice through both scriptures and oral instructions. Following that, the material has to be investigated and integrated into our own personal understanding. Finally, meditation serves as the means to familiarize ourselves with this understanding on increasingly deeper levels until it becomes a spontaneous living experience in every situation.

Thus, it is at the step of reflection that reasoning in general— and Madhyamaka reasoning in particular — comes into play. Here, reflection does not mean just pondering something in a vague way but employing systematic and rigorous techniques of reasoning to gain thorough and incontrovertible certainty about the key issues of the Buddhist path.


Karl Brunnhölzl, The Center of the Sunlit Sky


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