Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby Malcolm » Fri May 20, 2011 6:18 pm

tamdrin wrote:cool :thumbsup:

how long is this text? Maybe tibetans should become more Chan friendly. I dont think the Buddha himself would have advocated either the gradual or the instantaneous paths.



It is about 12 folio sides, not that long. I will probably translate it since it is useful.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby tamdrin » Fri May 20, 2011 6:45 pm

that would be great if you did translate it Malcolm...
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby Jnana » Fri May 20, 2011 8:08 pm

Namdrol wrote:It is about 12 folio sides, not that long. I will probably translate it since it is useful.

Good idea.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby mzaur » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:20 am

So from a Tibetan pov, Zen does not lead to the same realization as Vajrayana?
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby Astus » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:11 am

mzaur wrote:So from a Tibetan pov, Zen does not lead to the same realization as Vajrayana?


It does lead to buddhahood since it is Mahayana, so they simply put it into their interpretation of sutrayana.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby mzaur » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:52 pm

Thanks. Why is it that sutra is considered inferior to Vajrayana? I know the texts say sutrayana is slower but where is there real evidence for that? Could that just be a way to get tantric practitioners motivated about their path?
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby Adamantine » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:06 pm

I think it may help the discussion to examine Chogyam Trungpa's view of Zen, which was informed by his relationship to Suzuki Roshi. If I recall correctly, Suzuki Roshi reminded him greatly of his own Dzogchen master Sechen Kongtrul. I will try to find relevant quotes of his when I have the time.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby mzaur » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:32 am

Adamantine wrote:I think it may help the discussion to examine Chogyam Trungpa's view of Zen, which was informed by his relationship to Suzuki Roshi. If I recall correctly, Suzuki Roshi reminded him greatly of his own Dzogchen master Sechen Kongtrul. I will try to find relevant quotes of his when I have the time.


I'd really appreciate it if you could. I couldn't find Trungpa Rinpoche's view of Zen by googling online.

I'm actually surprised that a lot of Vajrayana people seem to look down at Zen, when Zen seems to be very akin to Dzogchen/Mahamudra as a direct path that takes the mind as its basis and also employing direct transmission from teacher to student as a method.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby Adamantine » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:44 am

mzaur wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I think it may help the discussion to examine Chogyam Trungpa's view of Zen, which was informed by his relationship to Suzuki Roshi. If I recall correctly, Suzuki Roshi reminded him greatly of his own Dzogchen master Sechen Kongtrul. I will try to find relevant quotes of his when I have the time.


I'd really appreciate it if you could. I couldn't find Trungpa Rinpoche's view of Zen by googling online.

I'm actually surprised that a lot of Vajrayana people seem to look down at Zen, when Zen seems to be very akin to Dzogchen/Mahamudra as a direct path that takes the mind as its basis and also employing direct transmission from teacher to student as a method.


For starters here is an essay by CTR about Suzuki Roshi composed on the occasion of his death: http://www.chronicleproject.com/stories_138.html

Excerpt: "All his gestures and communications were naked and to the point, as though you were dealing with the burning tip of an incense stick. At the same time, this was by no means irritating, for whatever happened around the situation was quite accommodating. He was very earthy—so much so that it aroused nostalgia for the past when I was in Tibet working with my teacher. Roshi was my accidental father, presented as a surprise from America, the land of confusion. It was amazing that such a compassionate person existed in the midst of so much aggression and passion."

I also found online this quote that I remember from "The Lion's Roar" - I am not sure if the page notation is the same as in my edition.
Student: I think you said you can only get enlightened by going through
tantric transmission. Have enlightened people from the Zen tradition gone
through tantric transmission?
Trungpa Rinpoche: In some cases. Sure. I think so!
S: In that case, would you say that Suzuki Roshi was a tantric master?
TR: Absolutely. Good for him

The Lion's Roar in the forthcoming Collected Works of Chogyam Trungpa,
Volume Four, p. 193
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby Sara H » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:35 am

Enochian wrote:Zen does not work with the channels, bindus and chakras within the body.

Vajrayana and even Dzogchen relies on esoteric anatomy.

Thats the main difference.

I'm glad I settled this issue. Your welcome.

P.S. Does a Zen master directly introduce the perfect natural state right off the bat? I don't think they do.


We actually use a mudra system that uses the energy pathways in the body, similar to amna in my branch of Zen.

We have a very detailed practice on it.

It's not something everyone uses, or everyday, but, it is helpful to use, or have as a reference should some particular tension come up in meditation that has trouble releasing.

Some people find the practice more helpful and others don't.

I don't always use complete mudra's/releases, sometimes it's enough to use part of one, simply to help locate the location in the body where the particular tension is arising, and help clear it out/help it release.

For bigger things that come up, or, if I'm sick for a while, I will use a complete mudra/release.

It can be very, very helpful.

Though as an adjunct to regular meditation, not in replace of it.

In Gassho,

Sara H
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby tomamundsen » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:13 am

mzaur wrote:Thanks. Why is it that sutra is considered inferior to Vajrayana? I know the texts say sutrayana is slower but where is there real evidence for that? Could that just be a way to get tantric practitioners motivated about their path?

Aside from claiming speed, they also claim 13th or 16th bhumi as opposed to 11th.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby BuddhaSoup » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:08 pm

mzaur wrote:I'm actually surprised that a lot of Vajrayana people seem to look down at Zen, when Zen seems to be very akin to Dzogchen/Mahamudra as a direct path that takes the mind as its basis and also employing direct transmission from teacher to student as a method.



It's a shame that any school looks down at another school. We have some understanding from the most ancient texts what the Buddha taught. After his death, some great effort was made to capture orally, then in writing, what the Buddha taught.

Over time, these teachings migrated to and through different countries and cultures. The Dharma was influenced by all of these cultural adaptations. Birds criticize fish because they can't fly (with rare exceptions). Fish criticize birds because they can't swim (with exceptions).

We struggle to try to reconcile what CTR thought of Suzuki Roshi. At the end of the day, it's just not necessary to suggest that any school is better, or faster, or shinier than another. We can study the Dharma, its history and development, and develop a sense of what is true Dharma and what is convoluted. We can, for ourselves, find a practice that is a good fit for our own sensibilities and practices.

The Buddha taught what the Buddha taught. The rest is ornament on the Bodhi Tree.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby lobster » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:44 pm

As far as I am aware, the awakened are non-denominational.
In fact they even transcend regional religions.

No doubt I am looking at it from the wrong shore . . . :thinking:

ah well :popcorn:
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen

Postby zangskar » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:26 pm

I noticed that recently the Rinzai Zen Buddhist Society in Denmark changed its name to Buddhist Society, "to reflect that we are now less sectarian and have begun to incorporate Tibetan Nyingma dzogchen teachings into our practice". (translated from http://rinzai.dk/)

I don't know anything else about it, but it sounds interesting and possibly a very fruitful combination?

I imagine the future will see many more such attempts, as there will probably be more Buddhist teachers who know several different traditions, and who will most likely synthesize or combine to some degree in how they teach.

Best wishes
Lars
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