Satori/Kensho

Re: Satori/Kensho

Postby Roneen » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:42 pm

Meido wrote:
Roneen wrote:This is a very interesting and Iine of thought you have elucidated. Especially the distinction between Kensho and what you refer to as the "'Expansive, I am God', 'Make me one with everything'" experience :rolling: I hadn't really ever considered that the two experiences were unique? For example, in some mystical experiences communication is experienced in a sort of timelessness without the usual linear coherency one is accustomed to, say like reading letters and words in context to derive meaning. Somehow the cognitive process appears to derive information supra-rationally from disparate; logically disconnected sources. In other experiences people purport to be God?! In the specific circumstance I am referring to an individual is able to enter a plane of consciousness were his written statements seem to imply an different meaning than what is plainly written in the text - a form of double-entendre which seems to have a self-emphasizing quality which enhances the secondary or alternate meaning of the statement for those able to pick up on it. Moreover this individual has some very base conversational proclivities which disparage women while inflating their own sense of worth. In short the individual is megalomanical and their words are hypnogogic and sexually excitatory. These types of influential characteristics make the person not only a danger to themselves but to others (which is why I made the Manson and Koresh comparison) and so I was looking for some information wherewith I could reason with individual.


"Oneness" experiences are not uncommon. They seem like they should be wisdom. But there's still "I, me, mine" in them...even if that "I" seems to be the universe, "me" seems inseparable from "you", and "mine" appears to be everything everywhere.

Best case scenario: arriving at that place, which is not without merit, one can take the further crucial step which drops even this so-called universal self. A teacher is important here.

In other cases we end up with someone who doesn't take that further step, but is still relatively benign: universal oneness and a bigger perspective are not such bad things, actually, so at least some spiritual figures who have had this experience deeply might not do harm. They could benefit some folks. It's just not liberation from our standpoint.

Worst case: one gets stuck in it and uses it to rationalize/feed deluded tendencies. The result is a spoiled child whose playground has suddenly become the entire universe, and whose toys are all people and all things. Add to this some amount of natural charisma, energetic power and so on and voila: instant cult leader.

Lots of kensho experiences folks think they've had are actually not it at all. Lots of folks who've recognized their nature do not undertake or continue the important cultivation afterward to return to it again and again, deepen and refine it, and embody it: a truly difficult and lifelong training.

~ Meido



"Lots of folks who've recognized their nature do not undertake or continue the important cultivation afterward to return to it again and again, deepen and refine it, and embody it: a truly difficult and lifelong training."


This is a very big and common problem and like you say a teacher is helpful at this stage of development - I would also say being part of a big group is also helpful so that if delusion surfaces it can't be allowed to grow unchecked. Which may be the reason I am so interested in this person? There seem to be a few thought provoking alternatives: 1.Continue to share the dharma in an indirect way (without confrontation) that shows the error of his delusion. 2. Be confrontational with composure and peaceableness while sharing the dharma. 3. Tell them this is SPARTA!!!! and banish them to the pits of hell with prejudice 4.Leave them alone completely and instead cultivate oneself.
User avatar
Roneen
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:16 pm

Re: Satori/Kensho

Postby Roneen » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:43 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:Regards
Gwenn



Thank you for this analogy it was very helpful. :namaste:
User avatar
Roneen
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:16 pm

Re: Satori/Kensho

Postby Gwenn Dana » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:04 pm

@Roneen: You're welcome.
Gwenn Dana
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Satori/Kensho

Postby Roneen » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:43 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Roneen wrote:IOW, the satori/kensho experience can be misleading and cause people to develop an erroneosu perception of reality


I would not go so far as to say that. Because people already have an erroneous perception of reality to begin with. The problem is not a satori/kensho experience but rather viewing the satori/kensho experience as a "I got enlightenment, so I no longer have an erroneous perception of reality" idea, when in fact they still do have erroneous perceptions. But it's not the satori/kensho experience that causes the misleading, it's really just the pre-existing erroneous perceptions, being laid on top of the experience, that cause that.

:namaste:



Right, the kensho/satori experience clarifies delusion it does not cause it or exacerbate it. So the appearance of utility belt gadgets to enhance one's ability and control within the material world are pre-extant tools that everyone has notwithstanding a kensho/sartori experience?
User avatar
Roneen
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:16 pm

Re: Satori/Kensho

Postby Meido » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:53 pm

Roneen wrote:This is a very big and common problem and like you say a teacher is helpful at this stage of development - I would also say being part of a big group is also helpful so that if delusion surfaces it can't be allowed to grow unchecked. Which may be the reason I am so interested in this person? There seem to be a few thought provoking alternatives: 1.Continue to share the dharma in an indirect way (without confrontation) that shows the error of his delusion. 2. Be confrontational with composure and peaceableness while sharing the dharma. 3. Tell them this is SPARTA!!!! and banish them to the pits of hell with prejudice 4.Leave them alone completely and instead cultivate oneself.


Well, I couldn't say what the best approach is for you to support your two friends. It's not clear to me, given the Enoch/prophet orientation of their teacher which you mentioned, that a Buddhadharma perspective will be of any interest to them anyway

But I think it goes without saying that you continue to cultivate since you are a practitioner...and so just be a good example to them of someone who does. I'd say that includes remaining open to them regardless of their beliefs, how extreme they get, or how much they might shut you out. Providing alternative views when appropriate can't hurt either, if only to remind them that there are alternative views.

Good luck to all involved.

~ Meido
User avatar
Meido
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:50 am

Re: Satori/Kensho

Postby oushi » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:18 pm

Roneen wrote:I would wonder what little progress could someone experience that would cause them to falsely conclude that they are the Mighty Thor?

That would be regress, not progress.
Roneen wrote:For example, are they naturally occurring? Is there a spatial relationship - the bigger you are the more gadgets your batman utility belt can hold?

I think those are made up stories.
Roneen wrote: I am very skeptical

Keep it this way.
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Satori/Kensho

Postby Roneen » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:41 pm

oushi wrote:
Roneen wrote:I would wonder what little progress could someone experience that would cause them to falsely conclude that they are the Mighty Thor?

That would be regress, not progress.
Roneen wrote:For example, are they naturally occurring? Is there a spatial relationship - the bigger you are the more gadgets your batman utility belt can hold?

I think those are made up stories.
Roneen wrote: I am very skeptical

Keep it this way.


Points well taken.

Meido wrote:
Well, I couldn't say what the best approach is for you to support your two friends. It's not clear to me, given the Enoch/prophet orientation of their teacher which you mentioned, that a Buddhadharma perspective will be of any interest to them anyway

But I think it goes without saying that you continue to cultivate since you are a practitioner...and so just be a good example to them of someone who does. I'd say that includes remaining open to them regardless of their beliefs, how extreme they get, or how much they might shut you out. Providing alternative views when appropriate can't hurt either, if only to remind them that there are alternative views.

Good luck to all involved.

~ Meido


I think your solution is the best. Thanks.
User avatar
Roneen
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:16 pm

Re: Satori/Kensho

Postby duckfiasco » Fri May 23, 2014 11:27 pm

I recently came across both this thread and these relevant quotes about satori in general (especially 14/15), which I found at http://antaiji.org/?page_id=4084&lang=en

Kōdō Sawaki Rōshi wrote:13. To you who says that you have attained a better state of mind through zazen

As long as you say zazen is a good thing, something isn’t quite right. Unstained zazen is absolutely nothing special. It isn’t even necessary to be grateful for it.
Wouldn’t it be strange if a baby said to its mother, “Please have understanding for the fact that I’m always shitting in my diapers.”
Without knowledge, without consciousness, everything is as it should be.
Don’t stain your zazen by saying that you’ve progressed, feel better or have become more confident through zazen.

We only say, “Things are going well!” when they’re going our way.

We should simply leave the water of our original nature as it is. But instead we are constantly mucking about with our hands to find out how cold or warm it is. That’s why it gets cloudy.

There’s nothing more unpleasant than staining zazen. “Staining” means making a face like a department head, corporate boss or chairperson. Washing away the stains is what’s meant by “simplicity” [shikan].

There are bodhisattvas “without magical abilities”. These are bodhisattvas who have even entirely forgotten words like “practice” or “satori”, bodhisattvas without wonderful powers, bodhisattvas who are immeasurable, bodhisattvas who are not interested in their name and fame.

Zazen isn’t like a thermometer where the temperature slowly rises: “Just a little more … yeah … that’s it! Now, I’ve got satori!” Zazen never becomes anything special, no matter how long you practice. If it becomes something special, you must have a screw lose somewhere.

If we don’t watch out, we’ll start believing that the buddha-dharma is like climbing up a staircase. But it isn’t like this at all. This very step right now is the one practice which includes all practices, and it is all practices, contained in this one practice.

If you do something good, you can’t forget you’ve done something good. If you’ve had satori, you get stuck in the awareness of having satori. That’s why it’s better to keep your hands off good deeds and satori. You’ve got to be perfectly open and free. Don’t rest on your laurels!

Even if I say all of this about the buddha way, ordinary people will still use the buddha-dharma to try and enhance their value as humans.


14. To you who do everything you can to get satori


We don’t practice in order to get satori. It’s satori that pulls our practice. We practice, being dragged all over by satori.

You don’t seek the way. The way seeks you.

You study, you do sports, and you’re fixated on satori and illusion. So that even zazen becomes a marathon for you, with satori as the finish line. Yet because you’re trying to grab it, you’re missing it completely.
Only when you stop meddling like this does your original, cosmic nature realize itself.

You say you’re seeking the way, but what does it mean if you’re seeking the way just to satisfy yourself?

You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?

Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.

We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.


15. To you who is showing off your satori

Why don’t you simply have “I have satori!” tattooed all over your body?
If you’re not conscious of your stomach, that’s proof your stomach is healthy. If you can’t forget your satori, that’s proof that you haven’t got any.

You think that you’re something special because you’ve got satori, but you’re simply showing off your sack of flesh.

When an ordinary person has got satori, he’s called a Zen-devil . This is because he thinks he’s something special.

When people talk about satori, it usually just means that a devil has acquired magical powers.

When you know you’re doing something bad, then it isn’t so serious. But people who chat about their satori don’t even realize they’re doing something bad. That’s why they’re such helpless cases.

No illusion is as hard to cure as satori.

Don’t take pride in your practice. It’s clear that any satori you take pride in is a lie.

You’ve got it backwards if you talk about stages of practice. Practice is satori.

Satori is like a thief breaking into an empty house. He breaks in but there’s nothing to steal. No reason to flee. No one who chases him. So there’s nothing which could satisfy him either.
Namu Amida Butsu
The Perfect Way knows no difficulties
Except that it refuses to make preferences;
Only when freed from hate and love,
It reveals itself fully and without disguise.
- Sengcan (tr. Suzuki)
User avatar
duckfiasco
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Satori/Kensho

Postby Wayfarer » Sat May 24, 2014 1:59 am

I very much appreciate that attitude. I have read similar things in Zen books in the past, but then you forget it again. It is good to be reminded of it.
Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas
User avatar
Wayfarer
 
Posts: 1931
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Satori/Kensho

Postby Luke » Sat May 24, 2014 1:29 pm

Astus wrote:If someone says he can obtain it, he is indeed an arrogant person and indeed is one with those who left the Lotus Assembly, refusing to listen to the Lotus Teaching Thus the Tathagata said: "There was really no Dharma by means of which the Tathagata attained Supreme Awakening."
(Huangbo Xiyun, Chung-Ling Record, tr. Lok To)

A thorough description of deluded states is found in the Surangama Sutra, chapter 8 (PDF): Warning to Practisers: The Fifty False States Caused by the Five Aggregates

^Good info. Also, in simpler Zen terms, these false states which arise during meditation are called "makyo."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makyo

So if some type of intense makyo experience was mistaken for satori/kensho, this would certainly be a negative thing.

Whether real satori/kensho is a bad thing depends on one's perspective and on the specific situation.
User avatar
Luke
 
Posts: 1669
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Previous

Return to Zen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

>