Is Zen Buddhism?

User avatar
WuMing
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:13 pm

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by WuMing »

As far as the Four Seals can be found I would say that Zen is very much Buddhism.
jeeprs wrote:A great blog post on this kind of idea. The last line is the kicker.
The photograph at the end of this article is not John Blofeld, but Lama Anagarika Govinda.
Life is great and death has to be just as great as life.
- Mike Tyson
People not only don't know what's happening to them, they don't even know that they don't know.
- Noam Chomsky
Anders
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by Anders »

Jikan wrote:This is an interesting question. A comment was made in another thread...
dzogchungpa wrote:Also, K. D. Lang and, if you include "Zen" Buddhism, Leonard Cohen.
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=15569

that reminded me of the book Buddhism and Zen by Nyogen Senzaki. It's quite an artifact, in that it gives some insight into the very early days of Buddhism in the US--the Mentorgarten scene in San Francisco, with Paul Reps and Sufi Sam Lewis in the mix. In this text, Senzaki takes what you might call a perennialist line: he suggests that Buddhism is a religion, but Zen is the truth of spiritual life independent of any religious tradition (if you're expecting a quotation or two from Meister Eckhardt by now, you won't be disappointed). I assume this was Senzaki's way of trying to reach the Americans he met at the time he met them.

I don't know any contemporary Zen practitioners who would agree with Senzaki on this point. The consensus seems to be that Zen is what it seems to be: a way to practice Buddhism. I also know there are Buddhists outside of any Zen school who would argue that what happens in Zen temples isn't Buddhism at all, but something else. That's why the quoted comment above caught my eye.

So I present this question to the gallery: Is Zen Buddhism? Are Zen practitioners Buddhists?

The quote is true in one zense. At heart, the essence of Zen is

  • A special transmission outside the scriptures,
    Not founded upon words and letters;
    Pointing directly to [one's] mind
    Seeing the nature and attaining Buddhahood.

Zen Buddhism, if we want to think of it as a purely authentic entity, is Buddhism brought to life, the heart of living awakening. Without this, Buddhism is 'mere' religion. And once embodied, one no longer need depend on the trappings.

In another zense, Zen is the name for a school of Buddhism, with associated practices and so forth.

In any case, I would propose that whatever way we interpret 'Zen', it goes hand in hand with 'Buddhism'. That is to say, there is little meaning in the standalone word "Zen", since Zen is either living Buddhism, or a school of Buddhism. "Zen Buddhism."

Once we start talking of Zen independently of Buddhism, all bets are off. I suppose some of it might be pointing towards authentic awakening, but who even knows? You've thrown away the frame of reference that defines "Zen", so it could mean anything.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by Simon E. »

I think it is very unfortunate ( speaking from a non-Zen but sympatico position ) that so much cyberworld discussion is dominated by jaded commentators who have their own 'zendos' and blogs, but who disparage Buddhadharma at every opportunity because it is 'kool' to do so.
I am sure you know the type I mean. The ones who spend all their time 'noodling'... :coffee:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by DGA »

jeeprs wrote:A great blog post on this kind of idea. The last line is the kicker.
I enjoyed this article.
“I see, I see. Bodhidharma entered the shrine-room from the sitting-room. Farmer Wang entered it through the kitchen, but they both arrived at the same place. I see.”

“No,” answered the Zen Master, “you do not see. They didn’t arrive at any place. They just discovered that there is no place for them to reach.”
I'm reminded of the Lotus Sutra's parable of the manure-shoveling son who, after twenty years' hard labor, realizes he hadn't needed to do any of that work at all because he was by right the owner of the manor... but that he'd had to do all that work to come to that realization. After searching and practicing, you realize there's nothing to search for and nothing to practice. (then you practice that)

I bring this up because this Zen teaching is, at least to my understanding, Buddha Dharma.
User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 2092
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by seeker242 »

Is Zen Buddhism? How do Huangbo and Linji answer that question? Isn't Buddhism about cultivation? Didn't they consider gradual cultivation and attainment to be outside of the "true way"?

For example Huangbo says in the The Chung-Ling Record:
"If Dharma students are unable to let go of conditioned mind suddenly, and instead practice in other ways, many kalpas may pass but they still will not have reached Bodhi. Because they are tied down by their thinking of the merits of the Three Vehicles, they do not attain genuine liberation.
Isn't this an admonishment of the "3 vehicles" AKA "Buddhism"?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6997
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by kirtu »

Anders wrote: Once we start talking of Zen independently of Buddhism, all bets are off. I suppose some of it might be pointing towards authentic awakening, but who even knows? You've thrown away the frame of reference that defines "Zen", so it could mean anything.
This then opens one up to Advaita, Sufism and other meditative/contemplative-centric paths as essentially indistinguishable from Zen Buddhism. The two aforementioned paths are in fact high spiritual paths but they are certainly not Zen Buddhism. This mistake has been made by many people.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6997
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by kirtu »

Jikan wrote: that reminded me of the book Buddhism and Zen by Nyogen Senzaki. It's quite an artifact, in that it gives some insight into the very early days of Buddhism in the US--the Mentorgarten scene in San Francisco, with Paul Reps and Sufi Sam Lewis in the mix. In this text, Senzaki takes what you might call a perennialist line: he suggests that Buddhism is a religion, but Zen is the truth of spiritual life independent of any religious tradition (if you're expecting a quotation or two from Meister Eckhardt by now, you won't be disappointed). I assume this was Senzaki's way of trying to reach the Americans he met at the time he met them.

I don't know any contemporary Zen practitioners who would agree with Senzaki on this point.
I have read Zen masters rank the "universal truth" hierarchically with the path of gods and men at the bottom and Zen realization at the top, etc.. Perhaps Senzaki did this too. Actually this is a reasonable presentation and is in concord with other Buddhist presentations on the same topic.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Anders
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by Anders »

seeker242 wrote:Is Zen Buddhism? How do Huangbo and Linji answer that question? Isn't Buddhism about cultivation? Didn't they consider gradual cultivation and attainment to be outside of the "true way"?

For example Huangbo says in the The Chung-Ling Record:
"If Dharma students are unable to let go of conditioned mind suddenly, and instead practice in other ways, many kalpas may pass but they still will not have reached Bodhi. Because they are tied down by their thinking of the merits of the Three Vehicles, they do not attain genuine liberation.
Isn't this an admonishment of the "3 vehicles" AKA "Buddhism"?
All Buddhism transcends itself eventually. Cf Simile of the Raft.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
Meido
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:50 am
Contact:

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by Meido »

seeker242 wrote:"If Dharma students are unable to let go of conditioned mind suddenly, and instead practice in other ways, many kalpas may pass but they still will not have reached Bodhi. Because they are tied down by their thinking of the merits of the Three Vehicles, they do not attain genuine liberation.

Isn't this an admonishment of the "3 vehicles" AKA "Buddhism"?
I take it rather as an admonishment of practitioners who are fixated on vehicles/paths and so practice "in other ways", i.e. without taking awakening itself as the gate and basis of subsequent cultivation. Since Zen defines itself as an expression of the supreme One Vehicle - encompassing the essence of all Buddhist vehicles and paths by directly pointing out one's nature - it does not negate the 3 vehicles, nor does it consider itself bound by them.

~ Meido
User avatar
Osho
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:09 pm

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by Osho »

Zen is Buddhism.
Buddhism isn't Zen.
More about Mindfulness here
http://bemindful.co.uk/

" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
(Dogen).
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by shel »

Anders wrote:
seeker242 wrote:Is Zen Buddhism? How do Huangbo and Linji answer that question? Isn't Buddhism about cultivation? Didn't they consider gradual cultivation and attainment to be outside of the "true way"?

For example Huangbo says in the The Chung-Ling Record:
"If Dharma students are unable to let go of conditioned mind suddenly, and instead practice in other ways, many kalpas may pass but they still will not have reached Bodhi. Because they are tied down by their thinking of the merits of the Three Vehicles, they do not attain genuine liberation.
Isn't this an admonishment of the "3 vehicles" AKA "Buddhism"?
All Buddhism transcends itself eventually. Cf Simile of the Raft.
How exactly do you know that?
odysseus
Posts: 1125
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:50 pm

Re: Is Zen Buddhism?

Post by odysseus »

Jikan wrote:Is Zen Buddhism? Are Zen practitioners Buddhists?
Of course Zen is real Mahayana Buddhism! The definition of Buddhism as a religion comes mostly from western scholars (another debate). If Zen practitioners want to distance themselves from the three jewels, it´s holding wrong view.

Domo arigato. :bow:
Post Reply

Return to “Zen”