Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:54 am

Hello dear friends

Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas and Amitabha ?
In know Chan dose . But other school like soto ?
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby tomamundsen » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:06 am

Sure. You will come across Amitabha's pure land to the west being mentioned in Zen literature.
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby plwk » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:38 am

http://poetrychina.net/Story_of_Zen/zenstory27c.htm
Question: For most people the natural way to enlightenment is to read the scriptures and recite the nembutsu [Praise to Amida Buddha].
Since you do nothing more than sit cross-legged, how can this mere sitting be a means of gaining enlightenment?

Answer: Of what use is it to read the scriptures and recite the nembutsu? It is useless to imagine that the merits of Buddhism come merely from using one's tongue or voice; if you think such things embrace all, of Buddhism, the Truth is a long way from you.
You should only read the scriptures so as to learn that the Buddha was teaching the necessity of gradual and sudden training and that from this you can realize enlightenment; do not read them so as to make a show of wisdom with useless intellection. . . .
Just to continually repeat the nembutsu is equally useless, for it is like a frog who croaks both day and night in some field. . . .
They who do nothing ... more than study the scriptures . . . never understand this, so just stop it and thereby cure: your delusions and doubts.
Just follow-the teachings of a true master and, through the power of Zazen, find the utterly joyful enlightenment of Buddha.
http://www.nembutsu.info/hsrbunat.htm
The Other Power of Amida's Vows, above all the Eighteenth, can accomplish all this unprompted and without repression, but with what Shinran termed jinen honi: natural ease and spontaneity. Clearly this idea owes something to Dogen and his Soto Zen and through them ultimately to Taoist metaphysics.
But when we read of Dogen saying: 'Forgetting body and mind by placing them together in the Buddha's hands and letting him lead you on, you will without design or effort gain freedom and attain Buddhahood', then he just as clearly shows the influence of Shinran's conception of the Other Power.

Again when Dogen tells busy farmers who have no time to enter a monastery and practise zazen that repetition of the Name is enough to bring them to Enlightenment, he has obviously been influenced by the Pure Land teachings of Honen and Shinran. There is an old tradition that Dogen and Shinran once met for a discussion and understood each other so well that at the end of their interview Shinran gave Dogen his nenju, or invocatory beads, while Dogen in exchange presented Shinran with his hossu, the horsetail fly-whisk of a Zen master.

Dogen's Zazen as Other-Power Practice
Shin and Zen: Bitter Rivals?
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby Matylda » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:00 am

Arabic Buddhist wrote:Hello dear friends

Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas and Amitabha ?
In know Chan dose . But other school like soto ?


of course...
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:18 pm

Thank you for your reply

But how soto believe in buddha lands . And they believe trikaya (three buddha body )in the mind ?
Because buddha in pure land as sambhogakaya body ?
So if we want to believe in buddha lands we have to believe the trikaya as Separated body of the buddhas . Right ?
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby Astus » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:31 pm

Trikaya doesn't mean three separate bodies. We'd then have three different buddhas for one buddha. The trikaya consists of the dharmakaya and the rupakaya (sambhoga & nirmana). Dharmakaya is the essence (emptiness) and rupakaya is the function (dependent origination), and they are inseparable. You can't actually have one without the others. The trikaya teaching is used to explain different aspects of a buddha, but they don't signify three distinct entities or even emanations. And just as the trikaya is used for external buddhas, they correspond also to the buddha-mind and buddha wisdoms. So it's both personal/subjective and universal/objective at the same time. A lot depends on the context the trikaya teaching is used. Buddha-lands are part of the work of the buddhas, so they come together actually.

Soto Zen - or any Zen school for that matter - does not posit a separate cosmology or "buddhology" different from common East Asian Mahayana. The unique qualities of Soto Zen lie in only certain aspects of wisdom related teachings and their application, plus certain ritualistic and organisational elements.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:20 pm

Thank you for Answer

I have other question
If Dogen believe in Amitabha . Then why he seeking Enlightenment ?
Why he did not saying the Amitabha name . Then he will born in pure land and Attain enlightenment in Easy way ?
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby Matylda » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:43 pm

Arabic Buddhist wrote:Thank you for Answer

I have other question
If Dogen believe in Amitabha . Then why he seeking Enlightenment ?
Why he did not saying the Amitabha name . Then he will born in pure land and Attain enlightenment in Easy way ?


Well the question is not to be answered. Nobody can simply explain why Dogen did this or that... Or otherwise we cannot say for anyone in such simple manner. Rather the person oneself may answer.

But there are a few things to be said. First Dogen after long search have seen that there is nothing to search since what he was looking for was just everywhere and at his own hands, so to say. Second his approach was realistic in this sense, that nobody is sane enough to see this simple fact therefore there was practice as well, but finally one should arrive at the same conclusion...

As for believe in Amitabha.. it is not some special believe or particular teaching of pure land schools only, including that of Shinran... generally nobody is opposing idea of Amitabha within the mahayana. Amitabha is just accepted as all other countless buddhas. Japanese zen never said that one buddha exist and other does not. Zazen practice and realization of soto school is not in opposition to pure land teaching. Moreover there are many ways to be born in Sukhavati of Amitabha, not only chanting the name. It is even clearly pointed in works of Honen, though Honen and Shinran definitely proclaimed nenbutsu as complete method for rebirth at Amitabha pure land.

Due to habits and conditions some enter dharma using name way some applying to zazen.... finally there should be no difference.
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:08 am

Matylda wrote:
Arabic Buddhist wrote:Thank you for Answer

I have other question
If Dogen believe in Amitabha . Then why he seeking Enlightenment ?
Why he did not saying the Amitabha name . Then he will born in pure land and Attain enlightenment in Easy way ?


Well the question is not to be answered. Nobody can simply explain why Dogen did this or that... Or otherwise we cannot say for anyone in such simple manner. Rather the person oneself may answer.

But there are a few things to be said. First Dogen after long search have seen that there is nothing to search since what he was looking for was just everywhere and at his own hands, so to say. Second his approach was realistic in this sense, that nobody is sane enough to see this simple fact therefore there was practice as well, but finally one should arrive at the same conclusion...

As for believe in Amitabha.. it is not some special believe or particular teaching of pure land schools only, including that of Shinran... generally nobody is opposing idea of Amitabha within the mahayana. Amitabha is just accepted as all other countless buddhas. Japanese zen never said that one buddha exist and other does not. Zazen practice and realization of soto school is not in opposition to pure land teaching. Moreover there are many ways to be born in Sukhavati of Amitabha, not only chanting the name. It is even clearly pointed in works of Honen, though Honen and Shinran definitely proclaimed nenbutsu as complete method for rebirth at Amitabha pure land.

Due to habits and conditions some enter dharma using name way some applying to zazen.... finally there should be no difference.


Thank you friend
but in pure land sutra Said we will born in pure land by the faith and saying the name not by zazen ?

I really want to practice zen . But i'm confused .
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby PorkChop » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:00 am

Arabic Buddhist wrote:
Thank you friend
but in pure land sutra Said we will born in pure land by the faith and saying the name not by zazen ?

I really want to practice zen . But i'm confused .


That's not completely correct...
The Amitabha sutra provides one way, the Contemplation Sutra provides other ways - which includes practices more recognizable as meditation. The Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra & the Contemplation Sutra both say (pretty much) that the mind is Buddha and that a Pure Mind is the Pure Land. Mahayana is about 84,000 different paths to become Buddha, none of which being supreme for each and every individual - all practices are geared to differing capacities of different practitioners. If you want to do zazen, then do it. Shinran says that faith is how you feel the embrace of Other Power and know that your birth is ensured. Shunryu Suzuki says in "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" that you'll never get Enlightenment when you practice zazen striving for Enlightenment, it's only when you have faith in your practice that you will experience Enlightenment. Different fingers, same moon. Don't get caught up on the particular finger that's pointing. Find what you want to do, what suits you best, and do it. Don't waste time on worrying which path is superior.
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:57 am

PorkChop wrote:
Arabic Buddhist wrote:
Thank you friend
but in pure land sutra Said we will born in pure land by the faith and saying the name not by zazen ?

I really want to practice zen . But i'm confused .


That's not completely correct...
The Amitabha sutra provides one way, the Contemplation Sutra provides other ways - which includes practices more recognizable as meditation. The Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra & the Contemplation Sutra both say (pretty much) that the mind is Buddha and that a Pure Mind is the Pure Land. Mahayana is about 84,000 different paths to become Buddha, none of which being supreme for each and every individual - all practices are geared to differing capacities of different practitioners. If you want to do zazen, then do it. Shinran says that faith is how you feel the embrace of Other Power and know that your birth is ensured. Shunryu Suzuki says in "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" that you'll never get Enlightenment when you practice zazen striving for Enlightenment, it's only when you have faith in your practice that you will experience Enlightenment. Different fingers, same moon. Don't get caught up on the particular finger that's pointing. Find what you want to do, what suits you best, and do it. Don't waste time on worrying which path is superior.



Great Answer dear friend . It is help me Alot .
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby PorkChop » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:29 am

Arabic Buddhist wrote:Great Answer dear friend . It is help me Alot .

For what it's worth, I do zazen every night and Pure Land practice throughout the day. I find Zen a comfort when it speaks of Big Mind, as I do Shinran's thoughts when he's talking about letting go of any "Self Power". When Zazen makes me an irritable person, I practice nembutsu/nianfo. When saying the Name doesn't quiet me, I turn to just sitting. The 84,000 doors are about finding your own path, not dogmatically sticking to what you think is best at a particular moment. The most important part is realizing your True Nature.
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby Matylda » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:09 pm

Arabic Buddhist wrote:Thank you friend
but in pure land sutra Said we will born in pure land by the faith and saying the name not by zazen ?

I really want to practice zen . But i'm confused .


So do zazen.. and do not be confused ... there is really no difference between pure land and zazen... this seperation only comes when we look in discriminating way. Masters of both traditions agree on similarity of aim and result. There were some great pure land persons who had great understanding of zen, solely coming from their pure land realization.

To practice zen and nenbutsu is nothing wrong. My pure land frineds often consulted zen masters like Yamamoto Genpo Roshi and younger generation masters as well. and my zen frinds benefited a lot from teachings they got from pure land specialists. Finally self power or other power are no two different things.
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby Greg_the_poet » Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:36 am

Belief in any state after death is not a requirement in Zen, belief in general is not a requirement. Pure lands, Heaven, Hell, hungry ghosts, devas etc. All these realms are here right now, and we pass through them all.
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Re: Does zen believe in pure land of buddhas ?

Postby yan kong » Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 pm

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