Does Zen have ethics?

Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby shel » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:11 pm

Matylda wrote:I have no knowledge of all those problems.
However I have seen somehow people who got involvoed in witchhunt and comitted their life to this..


You have no knowledge of all those problems but you have seen peoples reactions and judge them to be maladaptive. Excellent example of prejudgement. :applause:
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby shel » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:18 pm

Matylda wrote:As for ancient masters like Rinzai, Tozan etc. well their teachings were very particular, and for particular people. With time there were less and less qualified students so teachings were more and considerably restricted unless student could mature enough to understand.


Maybe this helps to explain what Kemmyō Taira Satō acknowledges, that Japanese Zen and the Japanese Buddhist establishment as a whole strayed from the teachings of Śākyamuni Buddha and helped enable Japan’s military atrocities in China and elsewhere during WW2?
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:44 pm

shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:I have no knowledge of all those problems.
However I have seen somehow people who got involvoed in witchhunt and comitted their life to this..


You have no knowledge of all those problems but you have seen peoples reactions and judge them to be maladaptive. Excellent example of prejudgement. :applause:


You may call it whatever you like, but if one is so preocuppied with counting others mistakes, don't you think that it is waste of time? If I would hunt someone's mistales it would be only miserable.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:55 pm

shel wrote:Maybe this helps to explain what Kemmyō Taira Satō acknowledges, that Japanese Zen and the Japanese Buddhist establishment as a whole strayed from the teachings of Śākyamuni Buddha and helped enable Japan’s military atrocities in China and elsewhere during WW2?


Well, nobody is forcing others to follow zen or any other school of Japanese buddhism, which are SO bad :D
Anyway it is good to learn a bit of history not from narrow - "morally superior" - point of view but to look deeper into events and their content. Then one can see the complexity of situations and in a way helpless struggle.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby shel » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:41 am

Matylda wrote:
shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:I have no knowledge of all those problems.
However I have seen somehow people who got involvoed in witchhunt and comitted their life to this..


You have no knowledge of all those problems but you have seen peoples reactions and judge them to be maladaptive. Excellent example of prejudgement. :applause:


You may call it whatever you like, but if one is so preocuppied with counting others mistakes, don't you think that it is waste of time? If I would hunt someone's mistales it would be only miserable.


Consider for a moment the misery of their victims, and their potential victims should everyone bury their heads in the sand and let them do as they please.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby shel » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:43 am

Matylda wrote:
shel wrote:Maybe this helps to explain what Kemmyō Taira Satō acknowledges, that Japanese Zen and the Japanese Buddhist establishment as a whole strayed from the teachings of Śākyamuni Buddha and helped enable Japan’s military atrocities in China and elsewhere during WW2?


Well, nobody is forcing others to follow zen or any other school of Japanese buddhism, which are SO bad :D
Anyway it is good to learn a bit of history not from narrow - "morally superior" - point of view but to look deeper into events and their content. Then one can see the complexity of situations and in a way helpless struggle.


Then one can see the complexity of situations and in a way helpless struggle?

As we say in my neighborhood, your english is not so good looking. :tongue:
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:22 am

Matylda wrote:One is responsible for oneself completely... there is no any supernatural intervention into karma sorry but I cannot follow even the term, where did you get it from?

Simply speaking, free will. Does it exist or not?
Matylda wrote:I am asking about this onesided understanding of emptiness it is a form of confused delussion about emptiness. When apperently one thinks that understood but in fact is deluding oneself profoundly. And it comes from false realization. Just read SHIZEN BIKU of Dogen zenji and you will see the warning of a great master and following instructions.

You did not answer the question. I am not interested in warnings and instructions, because they are missing one thing... And that is a characteristic of a man stuck in emptiness. Who is this guys, and how does he behave. What are his misconceptions, and how do they manifest. Honestly, I think it is only a hypothetical person, which does not exist, and never did.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:25 am

shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:As for ancient masters like Rinzai, Tozan etc. well their teachings were very particular, and for particular people. With time there were less and less qualified students so teachings were more and considerably restricted unless student could mature enough to understand.


Maybe this helps to explain what Kemmyō Taira Satō acknowledges, that Japanese Zen and the Japanese Buddhist establishment as a whole strayed from the teachings of Śākyamuni Buddha and helped enable Japan’s military atrocities in China and elsewhere during WW2?

Few decades ago Yamada Mumon Roshi said that Zen in Japan is dead. ;)
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:25 pm

Of course free will exists, otherwise the whole teaching on karma would be invalid.. one is free to act good or bad, nobody is forcing us... another problem is habitual dragging by poisons, but for a hero it is something to do away with.

As for warning etc. fortunately it is teaching from enlightened zen masters, so I will put up with it. Anyway your conclusion is pretty wrong. As for Yamada Mumon Roshi he was very critical of everything... just listen to his teishos and talks, if you can understand Japanese. By the way - is anywhere alive zen??? :D
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:43 pm

自由意志 free will....
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:50 pm

Matylda wrote:Of course free will exists, otherwise the whole teaching on karma would be invalid.. one is free to act good or bad, nobody is forcing us... another problem is habitual dragging by poisons, but for a hero it is something to do away with.

As for warning etc. fortunately it is teaching from enlightened zen masters, so I will put up with it. Anyway your conclusion is pretty wrong. As for Yamada Mumon Roshi he was very critical of everything... just listen to his teishos and talks, if you can understand Japanese. By the way - is anywhere alive zen??? :D

He said it needs to be re-imported from US.
When it comes to free will, you may not see it, but it is inconsistent to say that there is no difference between karma (which is cause and effect mechanism) and will, because it would mean that will has it cause so it isn't free, but rather determined bu it's cause. Buddhism is pretty much deterministic, but because of anatta there is ultimately no one determined. All is karma and there is Tathagata, the unconditioned, who is not free to act good or bad, but is free from acting good or bad. And this is what you will find in Zen masters teachings. This is why ethics are only a background framework, an not a major issue.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Astus » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:05 am

oushi wrote:When it comes to free will, you may not see it, but it is inconsistent to say that there is no difference between karma (which is cause and effect mechanism) and will, because it would mean that will has it cause so it isn't free, but rather determined bu it's cause. Buddhism is pretty much deterministic, but because of anatta there is ultimately no one determined. All is karma and there is Tathagata, the unconditioned, who is not free to act good or bad, but is free from acting good or bad. And this is what you will find in Zen masters teachings. This is why ethics are only a background framework, an not a major issue.


"The nihilistic approach evokes the psychological attitude of fatalism. You understand logically that if you do something, things happen in reaction to it. You see a continuity of cause and effect, a chain reaction over which you have no control. This chain-reactive process springs from the mystery of "nothingness." Therefore, if you murder someone, it was your karma to murder and was inevitable, foreordained. For that matter if you do a good deed, it has nothing to do with whether or not you are awake. Everything springs from this mysterious "nothingness" which is the nihilistic approach to reality. It is a very naive view: one leaves everything to mystery."
(Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche: Shunyata in "Dzogchen Primer", p 225)

Karma is not universal cause and effect, it is ethical responsibility and mental habituation. Fatalism and pre-determinism are not Buddhist views.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:17 am

As for Yamada Roshi and his saying.. well then go ahead and export zen to Japan from US. Why you do not do it? He must have said such things almost 40 years ago, right?

As for your interpreteation it is mixture of some true teaching and complete misunderstanding. It is not any background teaching, in the first place... you hear these teachings again and again in Japan, and it is in ccordance with great masteres teachings.. just read SHUSHOGI or anything like that.
Japanese masteres do not mix up different levels of teachings, but explain tchem patiently and they show logic behind it. As I said before you do not understand the word itslef - karma.

By the way, who taught you like this? A zen master??? any name?
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:32 am

Astus wrote:
oushi wrote:When it comes to free will, you may not see it, but it is inconsistent to say that there is no difference between karma (which is cause and effect mechanism) and will, because it would mean that will has it cause so it isn't free, but rather determined bu it's cause. Buddhism is pretty much deterministic, but because of anatta there is ultimately no one determined. All is karma and there is Tathagata, the unconditioned, who is not free to act good or bad, but is free from acting good or bad. And this is what you will find in Zen masters teachings. This is why ethics are only a background framework, an not a major issue.


"The nihilistic approach evokes the psychological attitude of fatalism. You understand logically that if you do something, things happen in reaction to it. You see a continuity of cause and effect, a chain reaction over which you have no control. This chain-reactive process springs from the mystery of "nothingness." Therefore, if you murder someone, it was your karma to murder and was inevitable, foreordained. For that matter if you do a good deed, it has nothing to do with whether or not you are awake. Everything springs from this mysterious "nothingness" which is the nihilistic approach to reality. It is a very naive view: one leaves everything to mystery."
(Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche: Shunyata in "Dzogchen Primer", p 225)

This is a statement, not an explanation. Very naive approach, which have nothing to do with reality. Moreover it's inconsistent, because in predetermined reality there is no "leaving everything to mystery".
Moreover, mahaprajnaparamita will crush Trungpas words completely. We can debate causality and free will, but those are already explained issues. If you don't believe, try answering the question who is the owner of free will.
This Trungpa teaching is the worst piece of teaching I have ever seen. Not only it's inconsistent, but very dangerous and misleading.

Karma is not universal cause and effect, it is ethical responsibility and mental habituation. Fatalism and pre-determinism are not Buddhist views.

For predetermination, a predetermined object must exist. In codependent reality, such an object does not exist. Duality is only a mental fabrication. Buddhism does not fall under predeterminism because of that, not though negating causality.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:48 am

Matylda wrote:As for Yamada Roshi and his saying.. well then go ahead and export zen to Japan from US.

Well, hi is dead...
Why you do not do it?

You mean me, or Roshi?
As for your interpreteation it is mixture of some true teaching and complete misunderstanding.

First of all, I am not parroting any teachings, thus I am unable to mix anything. I present a consequence of a particular statement, to which you refuse to respond. You are not discussing the subject, but just providing opinions. Maybe you are taught to just listen and not question, but you are not lecturing here, and you statement must be backed up.
Japanese masteres do not mix up different levels of teachings, but explain tchem patiently and they show logic behind it.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=13767&start=20#p179739
Explain this or ask you Japanese teacher to do so.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:49 am

As I wrote before you mix up everything and do not understand properly.. specially it shows in link you provide to Bodhidharma... just read what I wrote above.

Moreover zen teachers do no teach buddhas or tathagatas as you constatnly insist on, but common people. as long as one does not mature in a proper way such teachings you try to quote could be only misleading or worst - poisnous.. and some people indeed are victims of such approach. No understanding, no satori - high words without understanding. It is your choice Oushi.

You did not say who taught you such strange things... since you could not hear it from any Japanese teacher I guess.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:08 am

Matylda wrote:As I wrote before you mix up everything and do not understand properly.. specially it shows in link you provide to Bodhidharma... just read what I wrote above.

Moreover zen teachers do no teach buddhas or tathagatas as you constatnly insist on, but common people. as long as one does not mature in a proper way such teachings you try to quote could be only misleading or worst - poisnous.. and some people indeed are victims of such approach. No understanding, no satori - high words without understanding. It is your choice Oushi.

You did not say who taught you such strange things... since you could not hear it from any Japanese teacher I guess.

Where do I insist on saying that teachers teach buddhas or tathagatas. This is simply untrue. What are you trying to achieve through such an actions?
This completely makes no sense. You may not be mature in the subject, but that would indicate that you have not enough knowledge to do such high statements. Moreover, I cannot relate to anything you are writing, because you do not justify it in any way, and it is hard to discuss beliefs. You seems to be defending system you are a part of, but you miss the fact that I do not care about it at all. You many have dedicated yourself to a practice that you would like to be absolutely correct. I don't care. Either we are discussing something particularly, or not. Point out precisely what you are not agreeing with, explain why, and correct it if possible. Saying that I am wrong because zen teachers... leads nowhere. Still, that may be the place where you feel comfortably.

You did not say who taught you such strange things... since you could not hear it from any Japanese teacher I guess.

You guess...
What strange things particularity?
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:28 pm

There is simply nothing to comment or refer to, since I did it already... as far as zen teaching goes nothing was presented to show it in any genuine way... just some invalid quotations in a wrong cotenxt.

I sent you already to SHUSHOGI etc. and still you did not read it? It is more then clear about karma teaching in zen. For wrong understanding of emptiness and that sort of misunderstandings I related already to SHIZEN BIKU, it is in English and it is good to read, good for any serious zen practitioner. Yes as for the knowledge I have to rely on enlightened masters and their interpretations. You do not?

Still you did not answer from whom you got all those 'zen' teachings? or is it your own invention?

By the way.. today some people believe they are enlightened and had kensho, satori or whatever... then they present their own distorted views as a genuine dharma or zen teaching.. it is really pity since they misguide others, and cheat themselves. Neither they had any kensho, nor satori, but they go around and boast about their own experience and they behave and talk as if they were champions. So it is rather basically psychological problem, not even zen problem. It is so sad. Anyway it is off the topic.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:43 pm

Thank you for you advice, but I didn't asking for them. Clearly, you have nothing to say in the subject.
Yes as for the knowledge I have to rely on enlightened masters and their interpretations.

Do you know what those masters say about engaging in discussions like this one? Either you take it all, or not. You have already broke few precepts from Shushogi here. What's the point?
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:42 pm

Yes of course, I constantly break precepts, due to habits, it is natural consequence of being mortal, or samsaric being... on the other side one can be judgmental and criticize me, but it does not mean that I have to destort dharma true dharma teachings, so called SHOBO.

I may not follow teachings properly or completely due to my habits, but dharma is free from my mistakes, again my mistakes do not allow me to change anything in dharma teachings and present it as 'proper' view, when actually it becomes only my own construct. To loose life is nothing in comparison of loosing true dharma and falling as victim of the false one.
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