Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western Zen

Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby black_tea » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:59 am

Matylda wrote:So about whom are we talking here? about victims or supposedly zen practitioners? if it is latter case then give me a break.. pressure, what pressure? who can beliefe in such things? With old roshi is problem of rape? if he would do it to me I would rape him as well, we could compete who is tougher then... if a victim becomes zen practitioner then would only suffer... i know many cases like this.


Victims as in the women who were raped or abused by their Zen teachers. But as for pressure -- yes there is pressure. The fear of not being believed, the fear of having to go through everything that happened in court, the fear of being ostracized by the community who really wants to believe that their teacher wouldn't do such a thing. Feeling ashamed that it happened in the first place. Do you not understand how devastating rape and sexual abuse are?

careful with what? do not touch me, oh! do not beat me, oh! i am a victim, oh! I want to grow spiritually, oh! you know this is all nonsense in zen... due to his power master can use it freely to kill or give life. he is an emperor of the whole universe.. what kind of ZEN teachers do you want in the WEST? just say i will try to bring one from Japan, of course if i find one... many can die from laughter before arriving in the West..


How about not being groped, raped, or constantly hit on for starters. The teachers we need in the west are people who are responsible for their behavior and do not seek to harm their students. It really is that simple. It's not strange, not funny, it's completely sensible. Teachers should be just as accountable for their actions as anyone else. Also, the attitude in your posts proves my point about women being afraid to come forward.

wow discovery! but you have forgotten one thing.. in sex both parties have POWER operating.. and we women can put you poor guys including even monks or masters in a very miserable position, do you know??? I have seen it many times... both among Japanese and among Tibetans..


But some people have more power than others depending on the situation. In the case of these scandals, it's been male teachers taking advantage of female students. If a female teacher was behaving inappropriately with male students it would also be a problem, however, that's not what happened.

well i know even celibate teachers having sex... sorry not with me, but I know them.. not with students in Asia mostly they do not have lay students, or maybe sometimes.. but anyway they get some 'friends' in skirts...

exception is Taiwan and Maleysia.. Tibetan lamas had a lot of sex, so now there is a big opposition of husbands :)


Yes I am aware.

Actually I can tell you as for zen anything is ok for an enlightened master... he may even kill you if it will be beneficial for you... killing, stealing, sex etc. are ok in hands of genuine bodhisattva, who is zen master. Even 2nd master in China, Eka Daishi was an alcoholic and sexoholic by modern standards. He lost his arm in a drunken fight with some mugs in a liquor shop...


Ah, but can you tell who is enlightened? And if someone was enlightened wouldn't they know better than to engage in actions that will obviously cause harm?

why not, of course yes.. he would boil brains of those poor women. Attack was almost immediate, and he put in hell poor 'victims'... he was so rude! but wonderful wanted so much to liberate them from fixation of their own injuries and I,me obsession...


I'm not going to comment on this, since I have not entirely sure what you are referring to, and I'm not entirely sure you are understanding what myself and others have been saying. Do you understand what I mean by 'sexual harassment?'

Our laws and values are not any laws and values in fact... they are perfect means for slavery... to listen to demons :) that is all my comment... the only true moral is genuine dharma, dharma seals, no-I, selflesness etc. and of course law of karma.. those are very basics... if morals stem from it then it is genuine, if not then it is a fake moral, very very dependent, conditioned and subject to impermanence.. this is what society offers it is why it gets so quickly corrupt... and I only wonder when I see when buddhists in the West so obsessively stick to it.... so sad.


You keep spouting the same rhetoric which doesn't seem particularly grounded in reality. I'm going to step out and let other people respond. Maybe they can make more sense out of what you're saying. I will leave you with this, however. You seem to be suggesting that the only morality and law that counts is that which is in accordance with the dharma. Yet you are completely ignoring the third precept as well as right action and showing very little compassion for the suffering of others. Maybe you should consider these things a little more carefully.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby tobes » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:45 am

Should we have compassion for anyone who makes mistakes - including teachers, Zen priests, and murderers?

Of course.

Does this mean that we ought to abandon the act of making moral judgements?

Of course not.

The prajna of Zen does not imply the absence of discrimination. It implies a form of discrimination deeply attuned to the nature of reality. Abandoning this is abandoning wisdom.

So yes: compassion for those who in their humanity, inevitably fail in certain ways, make errors, act harmfully, create problems for themselves and others.

And also yes: wisdom to be able to recognise that fact, point it out, speak about it honestly and learn from it so one does not repeat the same error.

Buddha-nature does not equal: everything and everyone is already perfect, so it doesn't matter how I and others act. That is the worst kind of idealist distortion, leading to untenable moral relativism and plainly bad situations.

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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Shii » Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:41 am

tobes wrote:Should we have compassion for anyone who makes mistakes - including teachers, Zen priests, and murderers?

Of course.

Does this mean that we ought to abandon the act of making moral judgements?

Of course not.

The prajna of Zen does not imply the absence of discrimination. It implies a form of discrimination deeply attuned to the nature of reality. Abandoning this is abandoning wisdom.

So yes: compassion for those who in their humanity, inevitably fail in certain ways, make errors, act harmfully, create problems for themselves and others.

And also yes: wisdom to be able to recognise that fact, point it out, speak about it honestly and learn from it so one does not repeat the same error.

Buddha-nature does not equal: everything and everyone is already perfect, so it doesn't matter how I and others act. That is the worst kind of idealist distortion, leading to untenable moral relativism and plainly bad situations.

:anjali:


The prajna of zen does imply the absence of discrimination.

The more finely tuned you discriminate does not equal wisdom or compassion of any kind because discrimination implies that there is right and wrong which implies there is sin in Buddhism.

There is ignorance, and there is a seeing of another's ignorance that is completely without judgement and full of compassion.

Due to the nature of our reality there is no such thing as doing no harm. So we must make choices carefully that produce the least amount of harm possible while also dealing with our own ignorance in making those choices. I say choices because we are choosing between options available to us that would result in the least amount of harm, not placing judgement on a situation or person or person's acts/conduct. Judgement is a separation, a distinction between, a pulling apart. This is a mistake born of the ignorance that one human being should punish another for that human being's ignorance.

There is no judgement, no sin, no wrong in the eyes of the Buddha. All is one and all is different, at the same, exact, time.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby tobes » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:33 am

Shii wrote:
tobes wrote:Should we have compassion for anyone who makes mistakes - including teachers, Zen priests, and murderers?

Of course.

Does this mean that we ought to abandon the act of making moral judgements?

Of course not.

The prajna of Zen does not imply the absence of discrimination. It implies a form of discrimination deeply attuned to the nature of reality. Abandoning this is abandoning wisdom.

So yes: compassion for those who in their humanity, inevitably fail in certain ways, make errors, act harmfully, create problems for themselves and others.

And also yes: wisdom to be able to recognise that fact, point it out, speak about it honestly and learn from it so one does not repeat the same error.

Buddha-nature does not equal: everything and everyone is already perfect, so it doesn't matter how I and others act. That is the worst kind of idealist distortion, leading to untenable moral relativism and plainly bad situations.

:anjali:


The prajna of zen does imply the absence of discrimination.

The more finely tuned you discriminate does not equal wisdom or compassion of any kind because discrimination implies that there is right and wrong which implies there is sin in Buddhism.

There is ignorance, and there is a seeing of another's ignorance that is completely without judgement and full of compassion.

Due to the nature of our reality there is no such thing as doing no harm. So we must make choices carefully that produce the least amount of harm possible while also dealing with our own ignorance in making those choices. I say choices because we are choosing between options available to us that would result in the least amount of harm, not placing judgement on a situation or person or person's acts/conduct. Judgement is a separation, a distinction between, a pulling apart. This is a mistake born of the ignorance that one human being should punish another for that human being's ignorance.

There is no judgement, no sin, no wrong in the eyes of the Buddha. All is one and all is different, at the same, exact, time.


Sorry, when I use the term 'discrimination' I mean it in the sense given by the sanskrit samjñā - a basic level of being able to perceptually distinguish (that is, discriminate between) a cat, a chair and some tofu.

My point is that the forms of awareness associated with prajñā also imply those modes of discrimination, albeit in a more advanced, less obscured way.

To deny that would mean that when someone becomes a buddha, when they decide to cook their lunch, they are unable to determine whether they should cook the cat, the chair or some tofu.

But a buddha knows to cook the tofu, sit on the chair and give the leftovers to the cat.

I agree that the question of moral judgement is far more complex, because it implies a form of conceptual thinking which is deeply problematised in the Zen tradition.

But the point is that the development of prajñā conicides with the ability to discriminate between x and y, rather than denying it.

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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sara H » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:33 am

tobes wrote:
But the point is that the development of prajñā conicides with the ability to discriminate between x and y, rather than denying it.


Tobes, my dog can differentiate between X and Y.

It knows which it's food bowl is and which it's water is.

That's not wisdom. (prajna)

You're confusing two truths here.

All is one, and, all is different.

Everything is not-sepperate, everything has and is a part of the Buddha Nature.

That doesn't stand against telling the difference between coffee and tea.

That's just silly.

When we're having compassion for another person, we're seeing the Buddha Nature within them.

That doesn't mean that we don't know that they are a different person.

You're blending the two together.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
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It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby LastLegend » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:27 am

tobes wrote:Sorry, when I use the term 'discrimination' I mean it in the sense given by the sanskrit samjñā - a basic level of being able to perceptually distinguish (that is, discriminate between) a cat, a chair and some tofu.

My point is that the forms of awareness associated with prajñā also imply those modes of discrimination, albeit in a more advanced, less obscured way.

To deny that would mean that when someone becomes a buddha, when they decide to cook their lunch, they are unable to determine whether they should cook the cat, the chair or some tofu.

But a buddha knows to cook the tofu, sit on the chair and give the leftovers to the cat.

I agree that the question of moral judgement is far more complex, because it implies a form of conceptual thinking which is deeply problematised in the Zen tradition.

But the point is that the development of prajñā conicides with the ability to discriminate between x and y, rather than denying it.

:anjali:


Buddha has no discrimination conceptually or whatsoever. Then how does Buddha 'act' one might ask. Because there is suffering, there is Buddha. If there is no suffering, there is no Buddha. This is this, there is that. When sentient beings moves, Buddha moves. Sentient beings are conceptual, then Buddha is conceptual. But Buddha is not conceptual himself because he is free of self.

It's not nihilism or anything because nihilism is conceptual grasping and so is anything. Grasping is our problem.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby LastLegend » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:38 am

Matylda wrote:
Nobody forbids nobody to live ones life in accordance to ones own core beliefs, moral beliefs, those central belief systems held as the foundation, really not... the only issue here is applying Christianized thinking in Western Zen look up you will see the title of the thread... if one needs core beliefs, moral beliefs etc. should simply keep away from zen, seriously.. zen is about loosing all these.


Zen follows no moral conducts because he breaks none.

The behavior of enlightened master cannot be understood by the non-enlightened. For non-enlightened like ourselves, I would say try our best to stick to precepts. Breaking precepts and trying to imitate the mind of enlightened masters will not guarantee that we will see Dharma in the next life time, or who knows in how many life times.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby tigerdown » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:44 am

I have read through this topic, and it sounds like a bunch of people talking past each other.

Zen Priests and all Buddhist Priests have their Precepts on sexuality, some marrying and some not. All seek to uphold their Vows and not misuse sexuality. Some Buddhist priests break their Vows.

Some have simple love affairs.

A very very few Buddhist priests of all kinds are predators and harassers and molesters. That includes Zen priests, Theravadan priests, Tibetan priests, Tendai priests, any priests --- Christian priests or ministers and rabbis too.

Though, while even for non-celibate priests a relationship between teacher and student is to be discouraged and treated with great caution because of the potential for abuse, it sometimes happens like any relationship between two people. Some of those relationships are an abuse of position and power, some are not harmful at all.

Cases of simple love affairs, even between a teacher and student, must be distinguished from the rare (fortunately) molester like Shimano or Sasaki or those Thervadan monks who molested children whom I posted about on another thread.

The meeting took place at Wat Dhammaram, a cavernous Theravada Buddhist temple on the southwest edge of Chicago. A tearful 12-year-old told three monks how another monk had turned off the lights during a tutoring session, lifted her shirt and kissed and fondled her breasts while pressing against her, according to a lawsuit.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011 ... ul-numrich

Of course, Kalu Rinpoche's talks of child and sexual abuse in Tibetan monasteries:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... u-rinpoche

Other equally RARE cases are reported elsewhere, Taiwan, Sri Lanka, Thailand.


Even so, although we should condemn and prevent all kinds of such serious abuse, the abusers are also victims of greed, anger and ignorance. They should be met with Compassion even as we stop them.

On the other hand, anyone who tries to apologize away the conduct of such a "master" as just the "behavior of enlightened master [that] cannot be understood by the non-enlightened" (like in the post immediately above this one) is just incredibly naive.

Am I missing something in this conversation?

Tig
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby LastLegend » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:48 am

tigerdown wrote:
Even so, although we should condemn and prevent all kinds of such serious abuse, the abusers are also victims of greed, anger and ignorance. On the other hand, anyone who tries to apologize away the conduct of such a "master" as just the "behavior of enlightened master [that] cannot be understood by the non-enlightened" (like in the post immediately above this one) is just incredibly naive.

Am I missing something in this conversation?

Tig


That would be me.

My statement is not true? How?
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:26 am

The Angulimala example is not relevant to this situation. Angulimala killed 999 people BEFORE converting to Buddhism and practicing with the Buddha as his teacher. The zen teacher you are talking about committed sexual abuse whilst playing at being a Buddhist and a teacher to boot.

And when Angulimala was beaten with sticks, kicked, cursed at and had rocks thrown at him by the families of the victims while doing his alms rounds and he went to the Buddha to complain you know what the Buddha said to him?
Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"
That's right! He didn't judge the victims. "Karma..." he said to Anguilimala "...suck it up!"

The Wheel of Sharp Weapons (a Mahayana Mind Training text) says:
(11) Depressed and forlorn, when we feel mental anguish,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have deeply disturbed minds of others;
Hereafter let’s take on this suffering ourselves.
...
(14) When we hear only language that is foul and abusive,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have said many things without thinking;
We have slandered and caused many friendships to end.
Hereafter let’s censure all thoughtless remarks.
...
(23) When others find fault with whatever we’re doing
And people seem eager to blame only us,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we’ve been shameless, not caring about others,
We have thought that our deeds didn’t matter at all,
Hereafter let’s stop our offensive behavior.
...
(31) When all our affairs, both religious and worldly,
Run into trouble and fall into ruin,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have felt cause and effect could be slighted;
Hereafter let’s practice with patience and strength.
...
(67) We talk about theories and the most advanced teachings,
Yet our everyday conduct is worse than a dog’s.
We are learned, intelligent, versed in great knowledge,
Yet cast to the wind wisdom’s ethical base.
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern.
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release.
...
It seems Matylda and SaraH that the two of you are engaging in the nihilistic Dharma bending approach to Buddhism that Norbu Thinley Rinpoche warned about in the article. Why do I make this accusation? Because it is quite clear, from scriptural sources that Buddhism actually does frown upon certain types of behaviour and possesses moral/ethical prohibitions that are seemingly identical to Abrahamic thinking.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:42 am

Matylda wrote:from mahanibbanasutta
"Ananda, when I am gone, let the higher penalty be imposed upon the bhikkhu Channa."

"But what, Lord, is the higher penalty?"

"The bhikkhu Channa, Ananda, may say what he will, but the bhikkhus should neither converse with him, nor exhort him, nor admonish him."
What the Buddha is proposing is that Channa be completely ostracised from the Sangha, that sangha members not talk to him AT ALL, either to praise or to condemn him. Basically he is saying that Channa is reduced to persona non grata. For an (ex-) monk there can be no penalty higher than this. Complete and utter ostracision from the organisation that defined ever moment of their life. Now if we applied this rule to the case of the zen teacher we have been discussing...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Wayfarer » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:46 am

Sarah H wrote: my dog can differentiate between X and Y.


Animals can be trained to differentiate shapes. Ask it to recognize a prime number.
Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:37 pm

Christianized thinking strikes again: http://sweepingzen.com/sex-in-a-sacred-space/ !
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Dan74 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:12 pm

Matylda believes that the people who are the subject of the thread, the people who carry the title of a Zen master, are enlightened and free from delusion. "Emperors of the whole universe", I believe was her expression. So this precludes any further debate, because I don't think anyone participating here can claim such a title.

The real evil, according to her, is for the deluded students to judge the Zen master.

How can one debate with this attitude? And perhaps more importantly, why?

The sad thing is that it was precisely this belief that had enabled the abuse to go on for so long. Now we get a glimpse into the mindset and the culture that gave birth to it.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sara H » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:07 pm

Part of the problem here, is the word "enlightenment".

When people hear of "enlightenment" they think of a Buddha.

But the problem is, that terms means more than one thing.

A kensho, is an experience of enlightenment, but that's not the same as becoming a Buddha.

There's more than one stage of enlightenment.

A "Zen Master" is someone who is the following:

They have been a novice trainee for a while under the direction of a Zen Master.

They have had a kensho.

They have had several years of follow up training under the Direction of a Zen Master.

They have recieved Zen Priest training in the lineage of their Teacher.

They have received Dharma Transmission from their Teacher.

Their training has progressed to the point where they can be of some use to others and have at least one disciple of their own.


That's it.

That's all a Zen Master is.

You'll note, nowhere in that, is "they have become a Fully Enlightened Buddha, free from greed, anger, and delusion" anywhere a part of their qualification to become a Zen Master.

Because they aren't. Becoming a Buddha takes years and years of training, even a lifetime or more, after one has had a kensho.

It requires cleaning up all the karma from this life, and, all the karma from inherited previous lives.

That can take a long time to do.

So, in the meantime, they still have greed. They still get angry. And they still have some delusion.


What they do have, is good training, and the ability to teach it to others.

What they are not is a Buddha. That takes lifetimes of practice, and are rare in any lifetime.

It can be done, and some people have done it.

But it's hard-ass work, and not everyone is there, not by a long shot.

So, you have to keep in mind that they still have greed, anger, and delusion, even though they have a lot more compassion, love, and wisdom also.

It's something in-between a Buddha and an ordinary person.

And because it's in between, they still make mistakes.


People are confusing someone who's had a kensho (an initial glimpse or experience of enlightenment) with a someone who's a Buddha (Fully Enlightenment, someone who's free from greed, anger, and delusion)

It's an important distinction.

They are not the same things.

A kensho is one of the requirements for a person to become a Zen Master.

It's necessary for them to teach, because you can't actually understand the Dharma unless you've had an experience of enlightenment (a kensho).

But that's only a qualification for them to teach.

It doesn't mean they are a Buddha. They still have the Buddha Nature, but it doesn't mean they, themselves are actually a Fully Enlightened Buddha.

And so when someone has a kensho (an experience of enlightenment) it doesn't mean they are free from greed, anger and delusion.

So they are still just as much bound by it and make mistakes as everyone else.

Nor does making a mistake mean they are no longer training, have no longer had an experience of enlightenment, or are no longer a qualified Zen Master.

On the contrary, they may be doing fine training. Mistakes are a part of training. They can be a wonderful opportunity to go deeper and learn something about oneself. You can't take back an experience once you've had it.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
Last edited by Sara H on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby seeker242 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:53 pm

From an article on the subject: Mr. Martin, now a Zen abbot in Victoria, British Columbia, accused Mr. Sasaki of a “career of misconduct,” from “frequent and repeated non-consensual groping of female students”

Consensual and non-consensual sexual conduct are two completely different things! The whole issue has nothing to do with sexual conduct. It is entirely about sexual mis-conduct.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sara H » Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:12 pm

seeker242 wrote:From an article on the subject: Mr. Martin, now a Zen abbot in Victoria, British Columbia, accused Mr. Sasaki of a “career of misconduct,” from “frequent and repeated non-consensual groping of female students”

Consensual and non-consensual sexual conduct are two completely different things! The whole issue has nothing to do with sexual conduct. It is entirely about sexual mis-conduct.


Indeed, it sounds like he may have broken the Precept on sexual misconduct.

And, he still deserves compassion, and may be, may have been, and may continue to be a very good Zen Teacher for some people.

That doesn't stand against that.

Richard Baker seems to have matured quite nicely since the days of the controversy in the SFZC.

He seems to have done some deep sitting with that and turned into quite a fine Buddhist Master.

They don't stand against each other.

Me personally, I'm not defending sexual misconduct.

But I am saying it's not the end of the world, nor needs to be the end of someone's Teaching career, nor is it ok for other people to break the Precepts in reaction to it.

There is no damnation in Buddhism Someone can pick themselves up from something like that and be a very find Buddhist afterwards, having learned from his mistakes.

This is what Richard Baker had to say years later in '94:

I don't think that the gossipy or official versions of what happened are right, but I feel definitely that if I were back in the situation again as the person I am now, it wouldn't have happened. Which means it's basically my fault. I had a kind of insecurity and self-importance, which I didn't see for a long time, that was a bad dynamic in the community.


He really did some sitting with that, really saw something in himself.

It's made him a better person, and other people too by his example of being able to learn from his mistakes.

He realized something about himself that he didn't see before, and realized that he needed to address it and change it. That's a good thing, not a bad thing at all.

Sometimes people only see something when they make mistakes. That doesn't make them a bad person, or a bad Buddhist.

It means the Eternal's given them the opportunity to learn something.

We don't need to damn them for it.

We can have compassion.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Astus » Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:46 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Christianized thinking strikes again: http://sweepingzen.com/sex-in-a-sacred-space/ !


The Kosha (p. 652) says that one of the four forms of illicit sex is: "in an unsuitable place: an uncovered spot, a caitya, an aranya". Same definition is repeated in other works. So, "sex in a sacred place" as misconduct is not a Christian idea.

Here's another thing from the Kosha (p. 604) that says some very relevant point (highlights from me).

"Sexual misconduct is much censured in the world because it is the corruption of another's wife, and because it leads to retribution in a painful realm of rebirth.
It is easy for householders to abstain from it, but it is difficult for them to abstain from all sexual activity: householders do not leave the world because they are not capable of difficult things.
The Aryans possess akaranasarhvara with regard to sexual misconduct, that is, they have obtained definite abstention from it; in fact, in their future existence, they will be incapable of violating this precept. Such is not the case concerning all sexual activity. As a consequence, the rules of discipline of the Upasaka contain only the renunciation of sexual misconduct: it is inadmissible in fact that the Aryans, in a subsequent existence, would be capable of violating the discipline of an Upasaka which could happen if this contained the renuncation of all sexual activity. Akaranasarhvara means akriyaniyama, (that is akriyayam ekantata, the certain abstention from one action)."


In brief: it is easy not to commit sexual misconduct for anyone, but aryans are definitely free from it. And just to clarify, a noble being (aryan) is someone who has attained at least the first level of enlightenment, in case of bodhisattvas the path of seeing. Therefore, if someone commits a sexual misconduct that is a clear and obvious sign that the person has no insight into emptiness, has no enlightenment whatsoever, and should be viewed as an ignorant human being (prthagjana).
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:04 pm

@Sara H
Is there something about kensho that makes people insert a line break after each sentence?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Matylda » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:20 pm

justsit wrote:
Matylda wrote: if he would do it to me I would rape him as well, we could compete who is tougher then... [/quote}

Is this what Zen teaches?


Zen teaches you to brake completely beyond ''good and bad'', to go beyond of extremes of opinionated mind, and discover your true self... that is about zen... zen teacher ideally should be seen as a buddha and embodiment of 3 kayas.. but, BUT... one has to brake from this view as well and go beyond to take position which is beyond any description... if you have guts and was raped by zen master, just go and check what did he really mean... this is good part of zen.

It was interesting how roshi went along with that and how he gave up the girl who responded to him in simple way.. just f.. off :) but no anger or opinion seemed to be behind it... that is very interesting.. also his exposure of genitals made me laugh... if it was teaching, and this i do not know for sure of koz, then I feel respect to him. but if he was just fake then - poor guy ...

zen is on the border of life and death there is no any social compromise about it.. really not. Some say that zen in Japan is conservative? isn't it? Well zen will boil brains of westerners, this for sure... specially in the culture which is so much based on hypocrisy.
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