Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western Zen

Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Matylda » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:55 pm

All these talk about divorce and alimony is just nonsense, a christian nonsense... zen master and we are talking here about zen is pretty free from social bullshit which is basically harmful hypocrisy and bigotry...

You must know very well Norbu Thinley Rinpoche article on the subject of Western Buddhism... it is just like this.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Matt J » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:17 pm

The precept against sexual misconduct has a long history in Buddhist practice, originating at least in the Pali canon. It is not a result of "Christianized" thinking. Further, the precepts are meant to promote happiness and good will--- to do no harm, to not deceive, to refrain from negative speech, and to refrain from becoming intoxicated. The scandals are not in line with the spirit of these precepts.

The core issues with the sexual misconduct precept is to refrain from engaging in sex with those unable to consent. A teacher student relationship, especially a Zen one, involves a level of trust, vulnerability, and intimacy not often seen in this world. My own teacher tracks my progress and has access to my deepest thoughts, worries, and fears. An unscrupulous teacher could easily use such knowledge to manipulate or control an unwitting student.

It is not like a college professor and a student, because a student is not entrusting their professor to transform them from the inside out. It is more like a psychotherapist-patient. A Zen student's ability to think clearly and consent freely is compromised given the student teacher relationship. This is especially true in Zen because a student is taking a leap into the unknown. In many states, there are laws prohibiting sex between psycho-therapists and clients, between lawyers and clients, and in some cases, between ministers and clients.

As seen by these scandals, they cause fear, distrust, and harm which goes against not only the spirit of the precepts, but against the spirit of the Bodhisattva.
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If only there is no picking or choosing
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:19 pm

Matylda wrote:All these talk about divorce and alimony is just nonsense, a christian nonsense... zen master and we are talking here about zen is pretty free from social bullshit which is basically harmful hypocrisy and bigotry...
Social bullsit is not JUST harmful hypocrisy and bigotry, it is also necessary for social cohesion. There are hundreds of rules that were formulated during the Buddhas time to ensure the social cohesion of the sangha, were they also harmful hypocrisy and bigotry? The five precepts are harmful hypocrisy and bigotry? Ngagkpa (in the Tibetan traditions) and Bodhisattva vows are harmful hypocrisy and bigotry? Zen masters are exempt from ethical/moral rules and laws?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:27 pm

Matylda wrote:You must know very well Norbu Thinley Rinpoche article on the subject of Western Buddhism... it is just like this.

Is this: http://www.american-buddha.com/words.west.htm what you're referring to?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:37 pm

Matylda wrote:You want to have nice Buddhism? Moral Buddhism?

Yes.
Matylda wrote:OK, Make it like Christian church.

No.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:22 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Matylda wrote:You must know very well Norbu Thinley Rinpoche article on the subject of Western Buddhism... it is just like this.

Is this: http://www.american-buddha.com/words.west.htm what you're referring to?
Excellent article :twothumbsup: I can think of about ten different threads that it would be valid to post this article in. :(
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Matylda » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:50 pm

so called 'social cohesion' is nicely filling up psychotherapy rooms... I have seen grown up kids of very pious 'buddhists'' seldom they can say anything nice about their parents. And most are not buddhists and do not feel much for the dharma, it says something about 'social cohesion'... the West has no clue about dharma or buddhism is just building another fantasy about it... Thinley Rinpoche pointed it out very precisely. and on the top it ends up in nihilism, i.e. is creating its own standards, not dharma.

If one is a pure knight or brave heart of 'moral' buddhism as I said, go to the court.. sue the guy, put him/her in prison.. if not, so make 'moral' squads they will visit centers and catch 'sinners'... you will make pure buddhism, based on perfect nihilism.. go on, why do you wait? and what for??? why to be coward all the time and just give 'brave' voice on the forum???
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Yudron » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:58 pm

The allegations against Sasaki Roshi include rape, and--if true--this is a crime in any context. The other numerous allegations of "groping" and so forth should be looked at on a case by case basis... but given the high number of incidents it implies that this was a not a case of a man having consensual sexual contact with many partners.

I am not of the school that non-monastic Dharma teachers should have codes of conduct like those for a psychotherapist... but but appears to have gone into realm of criminal conduct.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sara H » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:01 pm

Matt J wrote:The precept against sexual misconduct has a long history in Buddhist practice...


The Precept against sexual misconduct is a very good thing.

So are the Precepts against talking against others,The Precept against being Proud of oneself and blaming others, the Precept against being Angry, etc.

You know, I realize that looking at sexuality makes some people very uncomfortable.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

We can look at this with kindness and compassion, instead of judgement and enmity.

People who make mistakes sexually deserve compassion too.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:02 pm

Matylda wrote:so called 'social cohesion' is nicely filling up psychotherapy rooms... I have seen grown up kids of very pious 'buddhists'' seldom they can say anything nice about their parents. And most are not buddhists and do not feel much for the dharma, it says something about 'social cohesion'... the West has no clue about dharma or buddhism is just building another fantasy about it... Thinley Rinpoche pointed it out very precisely. and on the top it ends up in nihilism, i.e. is creating its own standards, not dharma.

If one is a pure knight or brave heart of 'moral' buddhism as I said, go to the court.. sue the guy, put him/her in prison.. if not, so make 'moral' squads they will visit centers and catch 'sinners'... you will make pure buddhism, based on perfect nihilism.. go on, why do you wait? and what for??? why to be coward all the time and just give 'brave' voice on the forum???
Yes, well, it is VERY easy to criticise, so let's try something a little more difficult: what do you propose the answer to this dilema is? Let's see how well your view stands up because this last statement of yours was complete nonsense.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:03 pm

Yudron wrote:I am not of the school that non-monastic Dharma teachers should have codes of conduct like those for a psychotherapist...
Why not?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:06 pm

Sara H wrote:You know, I realize that looking at sexuality makes some people very uncomfortable.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
Sexual abuse is not an issue of sexuality, it is an issue of abuse. It just happens to be sex that is being used as the medium for the abuse.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Yudron » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:08 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Yudron wrote:I am not of the school that non-monastic Dharma teachers should have codes of conduct like those for a psychotherapist...
Why not?


Because I know people who have had consensual sexual relations with their Dharma teachers and things have gone just fine, or it has been positive. It really depends on the individuals involved.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:03 pm

Sure, and I am sure that there have been many cases of psychotherapists having sexual relationships with their patients and the relationship working out just fine. Do you believe that there should not be a deontology for psychotherapists as well? Why should there be a set for one and not the other. Really, their roles are not so astoundingly different.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Shii » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:15 pm

Sexuality is a natural human function. It is a part of every human being and has been for as long as we have called ourselves humans.

And, for just as long people have tried to control this deeply primal need in various ways. Our history is full of what to do regarding sex and what not to do, what is acceptable and what isn't. The truth of the matter is sexuality is part of every human being, you, me, everyone and it is still a need. Because of it's deep origins and social pressures placed upon it, this is not an easy thing to deal with for any human being no matter where you live or what the rules are.

So, because it is part of us all we need to try to refrain from speaking against others. We need to accept that suffering exists, in all it's forms. And above all we need to try to look at these things with compassion. Then, we can gain understanding and insight which allows us to deepen our own training.

We all struggle, each of us, with our own inner issues. Is it right for us, any of us, not to show compassion to someone who has made a mistake, even a very bad mistake, and speak against them, turn away from them and say they are less than, or worse than anyone else? Are we not in this way turning away from the Buddha nature within them and ourselves, devaluing them and being proud of ourselves?

Everyone is human. Everyone will and has made mistakes and continues to make mistakes, which they continue to try to learn from, consciously or unconsciously. Understanding ourselves is incredibly difficult and a lot of times painful. Understanding others is just as difficult and tests us all in ways we can't even imagine. Trying to deepen our well of compassion in a world filled with suffering is something each of us should try to do. Think of a time you have made a mistake. You were doing the best you knew how to do at the time. It is no different for any other human being. They are doing the best they know how to do.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby black_tea » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:16 pm

Matylda wrote:so called 'social cohesion' is nicely filling up psychotherapy rooms... I have seen grown up kids of very pious 'buddhists'' seldom they can say anything nice about their parents. And most are not buddhists and do not feel much for the dharma, it says something about 'social cohesion'... the West has no clue about dharma or buddhism is just building another fantasy about it... Thinley Rinpoche pointed it out very precisely. and on the top it ends up in nihilism, i.e. is creating its own standards, not dharma.

If one is a pure knight or brave heart of 'moral' buddhism as I said, go to the court.. sue the guy, put him/her in prison.. if not, so make 'moral' squads they will visit centers and catch 'sinners'... you will make pure buddhism, based on perfect nihilism.. go on, why do you wait? and what for??? why to be coward all the time and just give 'brave' voice on the forum???


Ok. So how do you feel about rape? It it ok for a teacher to rape a student? What about sexual harassment? Are these things ok to you? The issues being discussed are not just about consensual sex. People can debate whether or not it's ok for a non celibate teacher to engage in a consensual sexual relationship with an adult student (just for the record, I think in most cases it's a bad idea), but there should be no debate when it comes to the criminality of rape and harassment. I don't know all the details of all the scandals that have popped up, but it seems like a few involved actual abuse of the criminal variety.

I'm not really understanding your posts, to be honest, because the dharma does have things to say about sex and how we treat other people. This isn't something that people are just making up to fit Western ideals. I also don't see a lot of folks claiming that sex in general is a sin, but rather people shouldn't use sex to harm others which would be the third precept.

I don't myself believe sex is a sin. However, it is a powerful thing -- it can change relationships (this is not necessarily a good or bad thing, but something to be aware of) and cause harm if used inappropriately. I know I would not want a teacher sexually harassing me, would you? Do you understand what that means? This isn't about Christian morality being imposed upon Buddhism (I am not and never was Christian), this is about being able to behave in society in a functional way. Everyone moderates their behavior otherwise there would be utter chaos. Humans are social animals, we have to be able to get along with each other and work together for us to survive as a species. This is the way it's always been. Laws and social mores will vary from place to place and time period to time period, but laws and mores of some type always exist. The dharma lays out ethical standards too, and abusing one's students is clearly not in line with any of them.
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Matylda » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:24 pm

wow he is rapist, so why he walks free around? those complainers are all cowards :) why do not inform police and all other responsible authorities??? go on do not wait, do not just yammer like hyenas around... cowards are not fit for zen...
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Matylda » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:33 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Matylda wrote:so called 'social cohesion' is nicely filling up psychotherapy rooms... I have seen grown up kids of very pious 'buddhists'' seldom they can say anything nice about their parents. And most are not buddhists and do not feel much for the dharma, it says something about 'social cohesion'... the West has no clue about dharma or buddhism is just building another fantasy about it... Thinley Rinpoche pointed it out very precisely. and on the top it ends up in nihilism, i.e. is creating its own standards, not dharma.

If one is a pure knight or brave heart of 'moral' buddhism as I said, go to the court.. sue the guy, put him/her in prison.. if not, so make 'moral' squads they will visit centers and catch 'sinners'... you will make pure buddhism, based on perfect nihilism.. go on, why do you wait? and what for??? why to be coward all the time and just give 'brave' voice on the forum???
Yes, well, it is VERY easy to criticise, so let's try something a little more difficult: what do you propose the answer to this dilema is? Let's see how well your view stands up because this last statement of yours was complete nonsense.



Of koz it was a nonsense... my proposal is very simple stick to dharma not to the views which are distorted right from the beginning... if there are teachers sexing with women do not try to stop them.. if one wants to put a case just go to the court.. it is SO simple... Buddha said according to sravaka level do not respond neither correct monks who misbehaved.. just leave them alone, that is all... but some of the statements i read from Sasaki were very very interesting... more then usual..

why it is So easy to criticize? well just idiots expose themselves thinking that they stand for virtue... in fact they stand for their own stupidity and ignorance... poor guys :)
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Sara H » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:00 pm

I know the issue of rape is a sensitive issue.
And I don't think that's what happened here in any of these cases.
But it's an important point that needs to be addressed.

All beings have the Buddha Nature.

Rapists deserve compassion too.

Sexual abusers deserve compassion too.

Angulimala killed 999 people, he was a mass serial killer and the Buddha still made a desciple of him, and he did great Buddhist training and was an example to others.

It's not just the people who were on the recieving end of abuse and rape who deserve compassion and love.

The abusers and rapists also deserve compassion, and love, and understanding, and caring.

Now, I'm not saying that either abuse, or rape took place in either of these circumstances, nor do I think it's fair to suggest that, but I am just speaking a general truth, and adressing the facts.

If you can't see the Buddha Nature in a rapist, then it's you who are at that moment deluding youself. Because they do have it.

And understanding, compassion, love and forgiveness can go a long way to further both one's own, and the other's training.

Just look at Angulimala.
He was a serial killer.
And he became a Buddhist Master and Great Ancestor himself.
And an example to all Buddhists.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
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Re: Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western

Postby Matylda » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:05 pm

First people debates are pretty nihilistic, since they do not know what they are talking about if they claim they practice zen dharma. second why do you ask in the second person if rape is ok to me etc.? this just shows what kind of problem you have personally, nothing else. I was never Christian myself and this culture is completely foreign to me...
As for the rape or any other crime there is police... and that is the end of discussion.. real zen master can cope with it and with prison... yes I knew teachers who were excessively sexual... no problem.. but in the West I advice anyone who is harmed, just visit police station... why not? If not, then why not??? is there any second and third reason? any harm is wrong, not only sexual.. but here we have obsession concerning sex, power abuse and some other pretty neurotic things... and I think there is much more in peoples brains then actual criticized activity...

I know one teacher who is very tough.. he is crazy and very unusual.. harassing women of course if he hears something wrong from them, for example about men.. and he puts them right in hell of their own emotions which delude them to extreme... he is neither easy for men, but does not seem to have sex with them :) but what he really hates is all brain made distinction for man and woman... from this distinction come all problems..

Everyone moderates their behavior otherwise there would be utter chaos. really? I do not think so... already western psychology showed how it works.. people cannot really express themselves.. parents, school, church, society forbids all sort of free emotions and expression but supports all sort of suppression, so basically we are trained how to be good slaves of 'moral' society.. and society is not moral at all... produces weapons, kills people, makes wars, makes a lot of nonsense etc. etc. etc. human societies are completely corrupt, degenerate thing... harmful, stupid to extremes... and parents believe in these societies and teach children how to be good slaves, right? and still slaves are afraid to go to police and report on rapist.
Last edited by Matylda on Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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