Precepts in China and Japan

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Astus
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Precepts in China and Japan

Postby Astus » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:15 pm

Sara,

What I meant is that in Japan the full Vinaya ordination does not exist among indigenous Buddhist schools. It is another thing that married clergy is a common practice, but Zen traditions also have training monasteries where celibacy is upheld. However, celibacy (brahmacarya) in itself doesn't make one a monk in Buddhism, ordination (upasampada) does. And that's what I meant.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Sara H
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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Sara H » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:19 pm

"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Sara H » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:48 pm

Last edited by Sara H on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

Jnana
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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Jnana » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:55 pm


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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:02 pm


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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Sara H » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:08 pm

Last edited by Sara H on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Huifeng » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:09 pm



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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Huifeng » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:22 pm



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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Sara H » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:30 pm

Last edited by Sara H on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Huifeng
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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Huifeng » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:32 pm

I'm not sure how the issue of bathing / washing came to the fore, but checking the basic Dharmagupta Vinaya, there doesn't seem to be any conflict with the precept and how Chinese tradition bhiksu/ni go about the business of washing. There are plenty of exceptions - which is often the case with many precepts - for various extenuating circumstances. I can't see exactly what needs to somehow be modernized or whatever in this case.

~~ Huifeng


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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Huifeng » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:39 pm

Maybe I'm a bit behind the game, but, may I ask, what precept does using a laundry machine break? Or, by using un-perfumed deodorant, for that matter? such that we require a change to the Vinaya to allow these things.

(Am I off topic enough, yet?! :ban: )

~~ Huifeng
Last edited by Huifeng on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Sara H » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:45 pm

"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Sara H » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:52 pm

"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Huifeng
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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Huifeng » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:53 pm

Thanks for the invitation to contact them. However, I'm on another continent right now, and phone calls can be costly... :tongue:

I also note that in addition to Chan tradition Dharmagupta vinaya monastics, even fairly hard nosed Vinaya Theravadins don't seem to have any problems with washing machines; or Tibetan Mulasarvastivadin lamas, for that matter (Khedrup-la?).

"...stuff that's in those 200 some-odd rules and such..."
I can't find what stuff that would be, to be honest. I can't find what actual precept you are talking about that needs to change. (There are 243 precepts + the 7 settlements, usually given as a nice neat 250, by the way - Dharmagupta, that is.) Hence, I can't see the grounds for your argument.

As such, my guess would be, that for the OBC, they come from a tradition that didn't have Vinaya bhiksu/ni ordination to begin with, hence the arguments for a need for change. But my point is, those traditions that have always maintained vinaya bhiksu/ni ordination don't seem to have the need to drop the vinaya in order to meet the modern period. Hence, is there a need for change at all?

~~ Huifeng
Last edited by Huifeng on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Huifeng » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:54 pm

Sara,

Is this the first time we've met in cyberspace?

~~ Huifeng


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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:06 pm


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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Sara H » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:20 pm

"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby plwk » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:21 pm

This seems to suggest on page 81, that the OBC 'monastic' discipline is a mix and match of three sources: the Pali Vinaya, the Bodhisattva Precepts from the Mahayana Brahmajala Sutra and Dogen's rules... so that's combination that forms the 200 over rules? I am aware that the late Rev Jiyu Kennett did receive the Dharmaguptaka Sramanerika ordination from Malaysia (though not sure if she pursued it to Bhikshuni level) but if what the link says is true, then the OBC is indeed adopting and practising a unique form of 'mix and match monastic' regulations...

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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:23 pm


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Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences

Postby Indrajala » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:26 pm

Master Sheng Yen has said that historically the Vinaya was seldom really upheld and understood in China (that includes Chan). Up until recently a lot of monks just went through a tonsure ceremony, but not full bhiksu ordination (in many cases not even novice precepts). There's also the matter of karma proceedings which were largely neglected in China.

There was actually something of a revival of Vinaya studies and practice after WWII in Taiwan, but for the last ten centuries in Chinese Buddhism the Vinaya was actually neglected. You have stories of monks wandering around China in the Song dynasty looking for a suitable preceptor and a group of pure bhiksus to ordain them. It wasn't easy. In the Tang dynasty there was strong sentiments towards abandoning the Vinaya in favour of bodhisattva precepts. Figures like Saicho in Japan, who advocated bodhisattva monastic ordinations, got his ideas from authors like Mingkuang and others in China.

My understanding of the Vinaya in China is that historically it wasn't really widely studied or implemented. Master Sheng Yen has said the same thing. There were Vinaya masters and facilities for receiving precepts, but it wasn't a big deal throughout the centuries. In his youth he witnessed these ordination facilities ordaining any number of "twenty year olds" who were actually still under twenty, but they still went ahead with it nevertheless.

It would be anachronistic to project into the past a strong preference for Vinaya practices in Chan lineages when in reality it just wasn't there. I mean now in Taiwan there certainly is, but that's a recent development.
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