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Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight" - Page 8 - Dhamma Wheel

Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:45 am

You wanted names. So there we have it.

I've said what I had to say. And I stand behind what I've said. Kearney's words were used, but not misrepresented.

I have no time for Sylvester.

All the best,

Geoff

Freawaru
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Freawaru » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:03 am


Sylvester
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Sylvester » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:38 am


Sylvester
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Sylvester » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:47 am


Nyana
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:51 am

Last edited by Nyana on Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cooran
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby cooran » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:57 am

Hello Geoff,

Could you make a Summary Statement as Tiltbillings requested? I'm sure it would be of interest to all.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

Nyana
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Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:58 am


Nyana
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:00 am


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Ben
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Ben » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:12 am

THanks Geoff for identifying your summary argument. Anything additional to summary arguments will be removed.

Matheesha,

Any last words you would like to add before the thread is closed?
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

rowyourboat
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:51 am

Hi Ben,

Yes, to summarize my take on all of this:

1) Nibbana is unconditioned or uncaused. (sutta support+). To say that the noble eightfold path is the cause leading to nibbana is wrong. The final result of the process of practicing the noble eightfold path (fourth noble truth), is the third noble truth ie paticcanirodha, with the concomitant kusala factors like jhana,piti etc.

2) The noble eightfold path is conditioned, fabricated (sutta support+), as it is concerned with aggregates arising and passing away- even jhana factors are composed of fabrications (sankhara). Therefore it is impermanent, and unsatisfactory in the ultimate sense. So will any of its ‘results’ that is experienced in the here and now. So to say that nibbana is a ‘result’ (very specific meaning to suggest ‘caused’) of the noble eightfold path is mistaken. When what is ‘caused’ ceases, the uncaused is what is left behind.

3) Nibbana is supramundane, it cannot arise, as some quotes from the Visuddhimagga seems to suggest (not clear if this is a erroneous translations, won’t be the first time..)…or pass away (sutta support+). It is simply what is left behind when arising and passing away ceases. Nibbana also exists in its own right (sutta support+). It is not merely the absence of the three poisons. The ‘unconditioned exists, which is why an escape from the conditioned can be discerned’. To deny this existence is to promulgate a doctrine radically different from that of the Buddha.

4) The passing away of the three poisons (greed, hatred and delusion) partially leads to cessation of some suffering, but this practice is not complete. For the complete eradication of the three poisons (asesa-viraganirodha) leads to unravelling of this illusion of the aggregates, leading to paticcanirodha. Anyone who experiences cessation of consciousness, cessation of contact, cessation of nama rupa, cessation of six sense bases, cessation of becoming/existence will experience what has been erroneously named a ‘black out’’asanna states’ etc. The latter are all mundane states. A person with a mundane practice hasn’t seen the ultimate (aggregates arising and passing away). A person who hasn’t seen the ultimate, certainly hasn’t experienced the supramundane (asankhata) –aggregates ceasing and the resultant nibbana ‘dhathu’. They will interpret this experience merely in mundane terms, which is what has happened by those practitioners. Even sotapannas will confuse nibbana (sutta support+)- arahanths definitely won’t (sutta support+). For anyone in between, it can go either way.

5) Taking the alternate view that the noble eightfold path is the (direct) cause of nibbana means that nibbana is caused (direct counter to suttas), to say that it is composed of jhana factor means it is fabricated/sankhata (direct counter to suttas). IF nibbana is caused and fabricated, then it is impermanent, as it would be composed of the 5 aggregates, which in turn would mean that nibbana is unsatisfactory (dukkha) (direct counter to the suttas).

6) It is possible to find material from the commentaries to support any view, including possibly viewing nibbana as some heavenly realm. Commentaries contain opposing views, so people are free to pick and choose whatever to support their view. Suttas do not have this feature.. Commentaries are also simply wrong ..sometimes. For example the idea that there can be 5 rupa jhana, and concomitant ‘supramundane jhana consciousness’ is mistaken, because it can be experientially proven that there are only 4 rupa jhana (sutta support +). That in itself should be proof enough the monk who wrote the 20 types of path consciousness had no experience of what he was writing about and that it was merely an analytical scholarly exercise. Those with an analytical scholarly bent often flock together, with no regard to the Truth.

Finally, yes I did say (a truth) that I teach the dhamma, in response to the question ‘are there any dhamma teachers/meditation instructors here?’ by Rick on a particular thread.

I find nothing wrong in stating something which is factually correct. How this is perceived is beyond my responsibility. Personally, I do not expect any special treatment, nor does it mean (for me) that my statements should be held in any special regard. If what I say is not consistant with the dhamma-vinaya as stated by the Buddha, in the sutta-vinaya pitaka(and leaving out those dodgy stanzas at the end of some suttas..), I am happy to be proven wrong and learn something new in the process. It may help me put an end to suffering.

Ok, that is all from me,

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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mikenz66
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:22 am



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