'What are you saying'?

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LastLegend
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by LastLegend »

If you don’t find a teacher soon, you’ll live this life in vain. It’s true, you have the buddha-nature. But the help of a teacher you’ll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand.

Buddha is Sanskrit for what you call aware, miraculously aware. Responding, arching your brows blinking your eyes, moving your hands and feet, its all your miraculously aware nature. And this nature is the mind. And the mind is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the path. And the path is Zen. But the word Zen is one that remains a puzzle to both mortals and sages. Seeing your nature is Zen. Unless you see your nature, it’s not Zen.


If seeing your nature is Zen, then any preliminary practice is not Zen.

In Vietnam, as far as I am aware, there is no special transmission, no koans, nothing special, special tea ceremony, and it's not a class thing. What is clear about Vietnamese Zen approach is the teacher explains what it's all about. Zen Master Thich Thanh Tu explained meditation as "reflecting the light inward upon oneself." Master explained, according to Shuragama Sutra, when Buddha raised his hand and asked Ananda if he sees, Ananda answered yes. Buddha put his hand down and asked Ananda if he sees, Ananda said no. When Buddha hit the bell and asked Ananda if he hears, Ananda said yes. When the sound of the bell disappeared, Buddha asked Ananda if he hears, Ananda said no. Buddha scolded Ananda on the two occasions for losing oneself to appearance. That sees that hears does not disappear even when the object is not present; it's always present, the Master explained. This is not different from, Mahamati, it is like a mirror indiscriminately and instantaneously reflecting in it forms and images; (56) in the same way, Mahamati, the purification by the Tathagata of all beings is instantaneous, who makes them free from discrimination and leads them to the state of imagelessness.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by LastLegend »

From my understanding, mirror reflects in it images and forms. This knowing mirror is not within concept such that we try to know images and forms by grasping to them. Some would argue knowing is conditioned, maybe so, but there cannot be two knowing. It also does not mean we don't respond or react like a dead mirror. It's like a mirror not an actual mirror. It's more of having a clear mind knowing clearly. Again, knowing clearly does not mean like a crystal clear or any appearance.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by White Lotus »

when the student Is ready the teacher will appear. when you need a teacher you cannot fail to find one... even if it is just a pebble, you would be amazed by how much you can learn from a pebble with enough dedication, or the taste of water. what when looking in the mirror there is no one looking and no mirror? in my case it is ego that wants to look in a mirror and I have to remind him that no one is looking. ego, though you can love him is sometimes an uncomfortable friend.

you will find it hard meet someone who is on the way who does not have or has not had some kind of special teacher, even though he may not be aware of it. ordinary life is the way, life is a great teacher.

Buddha nature, or own nature... it will pass. no mind however wont. but the time comes when one recognises no abiding; even in no mind. this is quite normal but most people don't see it.

Astus, I am trying to understand why people talk of non abiding 'mind'. I don't understand this concept, would be grateful for your perspective.


best wishes, Tom.

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and was enlightened.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

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The Tathagata (not Tathagatas) is referring to each of our mirror mind. It's not Sakymuni Tathagata. All beings refer to all our thoughts or mental activities. A thought is a being, and a being is conditioned. This is not different from what Master Hui Neng and Diamond Sutra said.
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by Astus »

Meido wrote:Zen is not a reduction of myriad methods to one of seeing nature. It is a way of approaching myriad methods with seeing nature as the basis of practice. This approach is what marks it as a One Vehicle school, and ultimately without fixed methods.
In order to practice the paramitas, a bodhisattva has to realise prajnaparamita. In other words, what you say seems no different from how Mahayana is generally taught. On the other hand, several ancestors - although not all (e.g. Zongmi) - taught that "To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to arrive at the stage of buddhahood." (Platform Sutra, p 34, BDK Edition) and "Awakening is to awake to one's original nature. Once awakened, one is awakened forever, there being no more ignorance." (Mazu Daoyi, in Sun-Face Buddha, p 67-68). And there is of course Linji:

"Outside mind there’s no dharma, nor is there anything to be gained within it. What are you seeking? Everywhere you say, ‘There’s something to practice, something to obtain.’ Make no mistake! Even if there were something to be gained by practice, it would be nothing but birth-and-death karma. You say, ‘The six pāramitās and the ten thousand [virtuous] actions are all to be practiced.’ As I see it, all this is just making karma."
(Record of Linji, p 17, tr Sasaki)
also:
"people everywhere say that there is a Way to be practiced, a dharma to be confirmed. Tell me, what dharma will you confirm, what Way will you practice? What is lacking in your present activity? What still needs to be patched up?"
(p 18)

Do you consider them relative teachings that were meant to motivate beginner practitioners who were lacking determination and had been frightened by the long path of the bodhisattva? Is it all rhetoric and skilful means? Or is it that they were meant only for the best of the best, a few people of the highest capacity?
Meido wrote:But glancing at the people you name I see a number of people who went to be ordained, who entered into communal practice, who received crucial practice advice from teachers, and so on. Most if not all, I expect, took the role of teacher to others , and most transmitted to successors ?
Yes, everyone listed there were (are) ordained monastics, and eventually took up teaching. Naturally, the very meaning of a monastic community is preserving and passing on the Dharma. Technically it is not possible to become a monk without a teacher, it is how it works everywhere. In that sense, talking about a lineage that goes back to Shakyamuni is redundant, as ordination necessarily goes back to him, and the same goes for the Dharma as well. And so we can see how the idea of a lineage as developed in Chinese Buddhism (first in the Sanlun, then the Tiantai, and after that in the Chan school), is about something else than authenticity or legitimacy, but that's a different topic.
Meido wrote:i think the mainstream and traditional understanding is worth emphasizing very strongly. There is also the issue of the rarity of people with sufficiently great ability to progress far on the path without guidance.
Does that traditional understanding include monastic life? If I understand it correctly, the Zen teachers (shike), who are actually authorised to train monks, in Rinzai are celibate monks.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by Meido »

Well, I did say there was nothing really special about all this.

However, based on the oral commentary of my teachers as well as the practice I am familiar with, I do not interpret the passages you cite to mean that seeing nature is itself completion of the path. And certainly one can also find numerous quotations expressing a rather different, practice-oriented perspective...for example this from Rinzai's teacher Obaku:
Mind is the Buddha, while the cessation of conceptual thought is the way. Once you stop arousing concepts and thinking in terms of existence and non-existence, long and short, other and self, active and passive, and such like, you will find that your mind is intrinsically the Buddha, that the Buddha is intrinsically mind, and that mind resembles a void. Every day, whether walking, standing, sitting or lying down, and in all your speech, remain detached from everything within the sphere of phenomena. Whether you speak or merely blink an eye, let it be done with complete dispassion. This is not something which you can accomplish without effort, but when you reach the point of clinging to nothing whatever, you'll be acting as the Buddhas act.

If you would spend all your time - walking, standing, sitting or lying down - learning to halt the concept forming activities of your own mind, you could be sure of ultimately attaining the goal. Since your strength is insufficient, you might not be able to transcend samsara by a single leap; but, after five or ten years, you would surely have made a good beginning and be able to make further progress spontaneously. - Transmission of the Mind, Addiss tr.
And of course with Huineng there is the story of the iinitial awakening leading him to seek out the Fifth Patriarch, which was profound but still not complete. As you know, only later did he have a second experience that deepened and refined his realization sufficiently.

I'm not much interested in the "all at once enlightenment" vs "initial awakening followed by gradual cultivation to remove traces" argument. I would argue that both are theoretically possible, but the former is so rare as to not be worth talking about much. On the ground, past and present, people were living together and practicing-even in these monasteries where Rinzai and others put on robes each day, engaged in ceremony and monastic activity, conducted periods of retreat, met with and guided students, traveled to test themselves under other teachers, and so on- in order to not only awaken, but to clarify and test that awakening over periods of years. Or such is the (here comes that word again) traditional understanding.
Astus wrote: Does that traditional understanding include monastic life? If I understand it correctly, the Zen teachers (shike), who are actually authorised to train monks, in Rinzai are celibate monks.
Not seeing the relevance of shike celibacy to our discussion here. But to answer your question, and as I expect you know, Rinzai Zen is not a single monolithic organization; rather it is split into lines each with their own headquarters and rules. I have read that the Myoshin-ji line is one that adheres to this rule. There are others which I know for certain do not.

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Re: 'What are you saying'?

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Meido wrote:I would argue that both are theoretically possible, but the former is so rare as to not be worth talking about much. On the ground, past and present, people were living together and practicing-even in these monasteries where Rinzai and others put on robes each day, engaged in ceremony and monastic activity, conducted periods of retreat, met with and guided students, traveled to test themselves under other teachers, and so on- in order to not only awaken, but to clarify and test that awakening over periods of years. Or such is the (here comes that word again) traditional understanding.
Isn't that how it goes among Buddhists throughout the world? Do you then consider Zen, or Rinzai Zen specifically, simply a matter of choice from all the other equally viable paths? That is, instead of believing in the ultimate superiority of Kanna Zen (like people claiming here), do you see it as 1 of 84000 methods? Or, as you mentioned before, Zen being a One Vehicle path without fixed methods, isn't that contrary to maintaining a "traditional understanding"? And since he teacher-student relationship is a crucial element of Rinzai Zen, these questions apply to that aspect as well. Like if it matters at all whether someone studies Buddhism with a Rinzai teacher, a Nichirenshu teacher, or a Sakyapa lama?

Here's another from the same text by Huangbo: "If you can just [attain] no-mind, then that is the ultimate [state of enlightenment]. If a trainee does not instantly [attain] no-mind but spends successive eons in cultivation, he will never achieve enlightenment. He will be fettered by the meritorious practices of the three vehicles and will not attain liberation. In spite of the length of time it takes them to [attain it, once they] reside in no-mind there is nothing else to be cultivated or realized. Truly without anything to be attained, true and not false [is no-mind]. Whether it is attained in a single moment of thought or at the tenth stage [of the bodhisattva], its efficacy is identical." (tr McRae, BDK Edition, p 16)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

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I think a lot of the 'back-story' to these various interpretations, is the circumstances in which 'Zen came to the West'. I'm thinking especially of the early pioneers in the first part of the 20th Century, and the lectures and books of D T Suzuki. There had been a thirst on the part of American audiences to go back to the 'original source' of religious ideas, freed from all the complications and dogmas which religious traditions had come to represent. And Zen, more than anything else, and especially as presented by Suzuki, seemed to promise that. Direct pointing! Look, you're free already! Who needs all the complications, your 'original nature' has been free since before the beginning of time.

(This was the subject of Alan Watts' essay Beat Zen, Square Zen and Zen - like many of his essays, quite perceptive, but undermined somewhat by Watts' own practical shortcomings.)

That was very much the motivation for my initial discovery of Zen, through the kinds of stories that I started this thread with, which comes from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. When I first discovered that book, there was a sense of euphoria and liberation - 'here, this is what it's really all about'. But reality re-asserted itself, as it always does, in the form of having to make a living and indeed a life. So the initial magic seemed to wear off. But then I might have discovered something genuine through it, because I did manage to stick with a basic self-directed form of zazen since those days, along the lines taught Shunryu Suzuki Roshi and Nishijima Roshi. I have been sitting daily since then, and have benefitted a great deal from it, though still very aware of the need for a greater commitment. So I think since those early Western pioneers, the requirement of 'living the practice' has become more clear, and I now think of it as a life-long commitment and a form of living culture.

(I still haven't found a centre to connect to, but I intend to. In fact my son now lives between Chicago and Wisconsin so I would very much like to visit Korinji one day!)


:namaste:
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

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Astus wrote:Isn't that how it goes among Buddhists throughout the world? Do you then consider Zen, or Rinzai Zen specifically, simply a matter of choice from all the other equally viable paths? That is, instead of believing in the ultimate superiority of Kanna Zen (like people claiming here), do you see it as 1 of 84000 methods? Or, as you mentioned before, Zen being a One Vehicle path without fixed methods, isn't that contrary to maintaining a "traditional understanding"? And since he teacher-student relationship is a crucial element of Rinzai Zen, these questions apply to that aspect as well. Like if it matters at all whether someone studies Buddhism with a Rinzai teacher, a Nichirenshu teacher, or a Sakyapa lama?
Certainly Zen is one choice of a path that can be made, and I made no claims of ultimate superiority among methods. But Zen's being "without fixed methods" does not mean it is without distinctive methods, or specific approach; it means that any/all methods are potentially encompassed within, and harmonized by, the Zen approach, which is to set up the initial entrance of seeing nature.

In other words, "One Vehicle" in Zen doesn't mean an ecumenical mashup of methods because in the end it's all just Buddhism. It is a distinctive approach granting great freedom because the essence of all methods can be grasped right at the outset. And in this approach the teacher is seen to necessarily play a role. We can agree to disagree on the importance of that role.
Astus wrote:[Huangbo:] In spite of the length of time it takes them to [attain it, once they] reside in no-mind there is nothing else to be cultivated or realized.
Yes, attaining to this ability to "reside in no-mind" is the rub. You interpret this passage, I think, to mean that one resides upon seeing nature. The more common understanding which I have expressed is that one sees nature and then trains to reside seamlessly in the upwelling of that recognition. Again, for reasons mentioned it's not really a dispute I find fruitful, though I would say that Zen does allow for the possibility of the former result, however unlikely and rare.

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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by Meido »

Wayfarer, I like the phrase "living culture" here. I know that I can come across as being something of a rigid traditionalist, so I'm glad for this as a reminder that what is transmitted in each teaching line does, in fact, evolve and expand with each generation.

Nice that it might be possible to meet, by all means drop me a line if you make it out this way.

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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by White Lotus »

no mind if abided in is still an abiding, however I seriously doubt whether someone who has attained no mind would be able to abide in it or in anything else. poor old huangpo! he must have been having a bad day.

skin, flesh, marrow, eyes. crush the diamond eyeball and be free from seeing in order to see. the dharma eye is no eye and there is no abiding in it of any kind whatsoever.

:smile:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by White Lotus »

everyone who understands impermanence will know that no experience is permanent, but fleeting. you cannot abide even in awareness. it comes and goes. this can be experienced by a complete beginner. theres nothing remarkable about non abiding except that people who don't know about it don't yet see it. Huang po must have known that no mind cannot be abided in, but found this too simple to mention. this is impermanence.

its simple like suchness, you see a cup... you see a cup. just that. pointing at the moon it is just the moon. non abiding is just non abiding, with a fancy name for impermanence.

sorry to disappoint you again, but theres nothing remarkable about it.

as for crushing the diamond eyeball. all that changes is the focus of the eye. it widens out a bit, no big deal. dogen said crushing it outstripped seeing the morning star. nonsence. sorry to regurigate it here. he obviously thought this was a big deal and named his book: the treasury of the true dharma eye (Shobogenzo). I prefer a hot bath.

love, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

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Meido wrote:It is a distinctive approach granting great freedom because the essence of all methods can be grasped right at the outset. And in this approach the teacher is seen to necessarily play a role.
What is that essence of all methods, and how is a teacher necessary to grasp that?

As White Lotus mentioned, no-mind is practically the realisation of impermanence, a core teaching of the Buddha found in every tradition, although it is also true that traditions approach impermanence and its realisation in various ways. So, what do you say is the Zen/essential way, and how is a teacher has an important role there?

(I'm asking for your views/teachings, not debating.)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by Dan74 »

Do you want to open another thread, Astus? I think it would be better.

_/|\_
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by Astus »

Dan74 wrote:Do you want to open another thread, Astus? I think it would be better.

_/|\_
Sure, why not. :twothumbsup:
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by jundo cohen »

Meido wrote:
DGA wrote:As for the Soto understanding, I have little experience of practicing with Soto teachers. My feeling, however, is that the teaching of the unity of practice and enlightenment is taken in error if it is used to negate Dogen's many other statements regarding the need for striving, energetic zeal, extensive practice to manifest realization, and especially that if one cannot find a good teacher it is better not to practice at all. We should also remember that Soto Zen is rich with many other practices besides zazen, so one assumes that the unity of practice and enlightenment can and should be expressed in many ways , not just through seated meditation. In any case, if one takes the "unity of practice and enlightenment" as pointing out that intrinsically we lack nothing, and revealing the experience of one whose practice has been brought to fruition in seamless /effortless non-practice - that is, one for whom practice and enlightenment are in fact one - then this is not different at all from the Rinzai (and, I would say, the general Zen) understanding.
Hello,

Sorry to be late to the party here, but I would offer one small corrective perhaps. I cannot speak from the Rinzai perspective (nor for all Soto folks, only my own).

There is no other Practice but seated Zazen meditation, for Zazen is the unity of practice-enlightenment, Zazen is striving, zeal, the manifestation of realization and the good teacher. There is nothing lacking in Zazen, so thus no where else to look for other practices. Zazen is so completely complete with nothing to compare, that when seated as Zazen there is not even some "Zazen" to sit or name, and all is total realization. There is nothing lacking and all has been fruition from the beginningless beginning. All this is nothing more, nothing less than a moment of Zazen.

All so ... while sitting Zazen!

But folks confuse the issue because they misunderstand the saying that "nothing more than Zazen is required for there is nothing more than Zazen" with the statement "nothing more than Zazen is required for there is nothing more than Zazen" They don't see how the two, although exactly the same words, are very different.

For rising from Zazen, getting up from the Zafu, there are countless tasks and Practices to undertake. From cleaning the temple to, for the householder, cleaning the house. There may be sutras to read or to burn, a baby to tend to or celibacy to be maintained, clerical work in a business office or work as a cleric providing good offices.

But maybe, just maybe, all can now be found to be "Zazen" in boundless meaning. All of life is "practice-enlightenment", to be undertaken with striving, zeal and as the manifestation of realization, all of life (so say the good teachers) our good teacher. It is all Zazen, the Koan Realizaed, right before our eyes, to be practiced in every choice and act through our day.

See how that works? Zazen is not the only practice. Zazen is the only practice. All practices are Zazen.

Just a small take on this misunderstanding in seeing Zazen as one practice.

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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Re: 'What are you saying'?

Post by DGA »

jundo cohen wrote:Hello,

Sorry to be late to the party here, but I would offer one small corrective perhaps. I cannot speak from the Rinzai perspective (nor for all Soto folks, only my own).

There is no other Practice but seated Zazen meditation, for Zazen is the unity of practice-enlightenment, Zazen is striving, zeal, the manifestation of realization and the good teacher. There is nothing lacking in Zazen, so thus no where else to look for other practices. Zazen is so completely complete with nothing to compare, that when seated as Zazen there is not even some "Zazen" to sit or name, and all is total realization. There is nothing lacking and all has been fruition from the beginningless beginning. All this is nothing more, nothing less than a moment of Zazen.

All so ... while sitting Zazen!

But folks confuse the issue because they misunderstand the saying that "nothing more than Zazen is required for there is nothing more than Zazen" with the statement "nothing more than Zazen is required for there is nothing more than Zazen" They don't see how the two, although exactly the same words, are very different.

For rising from Zazen, getting up from the Zafu, there are countless tasks and Practices to undertake. From cleaning the temple to, for the householder, cleaning the house. There may be sutras to read or to burn, a baby to tend to or celibacy to be maintained, clerical work in a business office or work as a cleric providing good offices.

But maybe, just maybe, all can now be found to be "Zazen" in boundless meaning. All of life is "practice-enlightenment", to be undertaken with striving, zeal and as the manifestation of realization, all of life (so say the good teachers) our good teacher. It is all Zazen, the Koan Realizaed, right before our eyes, to be practiced in every choice and act through our day.

See how that works? Zazen is not the only practice. Zazen is the only practice. All practices are Zazen.

Just a small take on this misunderstanding in seeing Zazen as one practice.

Gassho, Jundo
There's a lot to discuss here, and I don't want this post to get buried in this thread, so I started a new one here:

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=21088
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