oushi wrote:You further explanation is a different, later thing, you see. We are not discussing self-verification, stopping at kensho, or how the training should look like. I wander why did you bring those into discussion? Precaution?
Because you asked about Hakuin's intent in writing about kensho.
We are discussing the issue of talking about kensho. Discussing ones experience is already a form of verification that is based not only on self-view, as others will surely make their judgement. So, even here we see the value of discussing it with others. When we do not talk about it, then it is only self-verification. And I also want to say that there is nothing wrong with self-verification, as it is the only true verification. I like the comment to case 45 "who is that one? from Mumonkan
I did not say there is no value in discussing it. I said that by itself it is not worth discussing.
If one has the confidence to self-verify, naturally there should be no hesitation to approach one's teacher to see if they agree; that is the primary type of talking about kensho that is valuable. Of course anyone is free to make the choice not to do so. I am pointing out what Hakuin stated in the writings you mentioned.
oushi wrote:Still, mere verification is worth nothing.... it is just an opinion. If the thing is true, it does not need verification. If it isn't, no verification will make it real. Suffering is the only reliable source of verification. This way you cannot get stuck in your view. I think it should be clear for anyone that had a Kensho. It is not about fireworks, but no suffering.
Mere kensho is ultimately worth nothing...without its deepening, integration and actualization. It may even become an obstacle. That is my point.
Of course verification is just an opinion: and Zen teaching states that if the thing is true, it does
need verification...ours, and
that of others.
All of this is because Zen practice takes place within relationship, not alone. Why? Partly because getting stuck in one's views - and believing that a lessening or temporary freedom from suffering/vexation equals completion of the Way - are obstacles that claim many: as has been said, the field is littered with skulls.
I would be the first to say that we must use Zen "teaching", "methods" and "tradition" carefully, so as to not be used by them. That is another topic. Perhaps here we may simply agree that one is free to do whatever one likes. There is a traditional view of when it is useful to discuss kensho experiences, and with whom. At this point I think we've clarified that.