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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:45 pm 
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I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche how Guru Yoga works. Garchen Rinpoche told me the nature of mind is omnipresent and permeates all beings which is why one can unite with the mind of the guru. I asked him if this was the same as the Hindu notion of Brahman? He said the Buddha only meant to refute a Creator God, but the notion of Brahman is basically fine with buddha-dharma. That was surprising to me.

Malcolm has also pointed out that in the Khandro Nyingthig texts Guru P has stated that everything is rigpa.

So does Guru Yoga betray the Pantheism underlying Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:51 am 
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deepbluehum wrote:
I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche how Guru Yoga works. Garchen Rinpoche told me the nature of mind is omnipresent and permeates all beings which is why one can unite with the mind of the guru. I asked him if this was the same as the Hindu notion of Brahman? He said the Buddha only meant to refute a Creator God, but the notion of Brahman is basically fine with buddha-dharma. That was surprising to me.

Malcolm has also pointed out that in the Khandro Nyingthig texts Guru P has stated that everything is rigpa.

So does Guru Yoga betray the Pantheism underlying Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen?


Pantheism is an inappropriate term. There is no god in any form of Buddhadharma.

M

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:13 am 
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Sure there is. Monism too. How else can the Dharmakaya be all pervasive so that two minds can unite?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:46 am 
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Panpsychism might be more accurate and AFAIK is what Malcolm has been getting at.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:26 am 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Sure there is. Monism too. How else can the Dharmakaya be all pervasive so that two minds can unite?


Pantheism suggests that there aren't two minds, only one (hence monism), and that you seeing your Guru is in fact mind seeing itself.
The idea of Monism however, that things in the universe are reducible to one substance or reality, suggests some kind of external sub-stratum of a solid "reality".
If you want to couch it in those terms then I think the idea of Subjective Idealism would be a good starting point, which I believe corresponds roughly to the Yogācāra school.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:51 pm 
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pantheism is a product of 17th century Europe (lookin' at you, Spinoza). Guru Yoga existed in Asia long before this. So no, guru yoga is not based on pantheism.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:57 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Sure there is. Monism too. How else can the Dharmakaya be all pervasive so that two minds can unite?


That is not what happens in Guru yoga.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:44 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Sure there is. Monism too. How else can the Dharmakaya be all pervasive so that two minds can unite?

The mind isn't a thing is it? So what's uniting? Unity here doesn't mean one thing joining another thing. The idea is more like inseparability. But what is inseparable in terms of guru yoga? What does inseparable mean in the guru yoga context? Are we talking about egos being inseparable? Are we trying to unify two egos? So come on and relax a bit. Work it out from the beginning position of no-self. That's the best place to start from.

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"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Panpsychism too. I don't mean to say did this Practice come about bc someone read European philosophy. I try to assume a modicum of common sense here.

Specificly, is it bc the dharmakaya is all pervasive that guru yoga works.

Is everything permeated by this?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Panpsychism too. I don't mean to say did this Practice come about bc someone read European philosophy. I try to assume a modicum of common sense here.

Specificly, is it bc the dharmakaya is all pervasive that guru yoga works.

Is everything permeated by this?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Dzogchen guru yoga is tibetan letter A surrounded by a circle.

As you know the letter A is a coded symbol for breaking through


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:16 pm 
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SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
Dzogchen guru yoga is tibetan letter A surrounded by a circle.

As you know the letter A is a coded symbol for breaking through


In Dzogchen everything is rigpa


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:21 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:

Is everything permeated by this?



The three kāyas are the basis. Everything that appears to arise, arises from ignorance [ma rig pa] of this basis. When one is in possession of knowledge [rig pa] of the basis's actual state, and has integrated completely with that knowledge, then it is said that the universe arises as the basis.

It is not complex, nor does it entail pantheism, panpsychism or anything else. It is what it is.

M

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http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:02 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche how Guru Yoga works. Garchen Rinpoche told me the nature of mind is omnipresent and permeates all beings which is why one can unite with the mind of the guru. I asked him if this was the same as the Hindu notion of Brahman? He said the Buddha only meant to refute a Creator God, but the notion of Brahman is basically fine with buddha-dharma. That was surprising to me.

Malcolm has also pointed out that in the Khandro Nyingthig texts Guru P has stated that everything is rigpa.

So does Guru Yoga betray the Pantheism underlying Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen?


Garchen Rinpoche is very wise.

At the level of duality, the easiest way to think of it is that we are all beings in consciousness. A true guru is able to connect at the heart (or overlap presence in consciousness). Through the connection information/energy/light is shared which can "acceralate" spiritual growth (almost like drafting). At it's essence, the practice is the same as Tibetan Deity Yoga. But, in Deity yoga, one must have control of "tummo" to connect with the Deity/Master in consciousness. A true guru has realized non-dual and can thus at a dualistic level "connect" to anyone.

:smile:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:35 pm 
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There is no level of duality in Guru Yoga. This is the point. That's why we have the yoga part. Without the yoga or unity or inseparability you just have the guru and ideas.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Jeff wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche how Guru Yoga works. Garchen Rinpoche told me the nature of mind is omnipresent and permeates all beings which is why one can unite with the mind of the guru. I asked him if this was the same as the Hindu notion of Brahman? He said the Buddha only meant to refute a Creator God, but the notion of Brahman is basically fine with buddha-dharma. That was surprising to me.

Malcolm has also pointed out that in the Khandro Nyingthig texts Guru P has stated that everything is rigpa.

So does Guru Yoga betray the Pantheism underlying Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen?


Garchen Rinpoche is very wise.

At the level of duality, the easiest way to think of it is that we are all beings in consciousness. A true guru is able to connect at the heart (or overlap presence in consciousness). Through the connection information/energy/light is shared which can "acceralate" spiritual growth (almost like drafting). At it's essence, the practice is the same as Tibetan Deity Yoga. But, in Deity yoga, one must have control of "tummo" to connect with the Deity/Master in consciousness. A true guru has realized non-dual and can thus at a dualistic level "connect" to anyone.

:smile:


The universal Buddha consciousness?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

Is everything permeated by this?



The three kāyas are the basis. Everything that appears to arise, arises from ignorance [ma rig pa] of this basis. When one is in possession of knowledge [rig pa] of the basis's actual state, and has integrated completely with that knowledge, then it is said that the universe arises as the basis.

It is not complex, nor does it entail pantheism, panpsychism or anything else. It is what it is.

M


What it is is a Samkya Vedanta question. When It is what you say it is, it is compounded. When you are referring to faculties for the pragmatic approach to soteriology, what it is is irrelevant. You go straight to the finish where is, it or not are unnecessary to fashion.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:05 pm 
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'' What is in reality nondual
Is not mentally constructed . ''

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:05 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
Dzogchen guru yoga is tibetan letter A surrounded by a circle.

As you know the letter A is a coded symbol for breaking through


In Dzogchen everything is rigpa



1. Rigpa is not a thing.

2. Rigpa means knowledge.

3. If anything the universe appears because of ignorance (marigpa) as explained by Malcolm above.


Last edited by SSJ3Gogeta on Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Andrew108 wrote:
There is no level of duality in Guru Yoga. This is the point. That's why we have the yoga part. Without the yoga or unity or inseparability you just have the guru and ideas.


For the "guru" you are correct, but for the person being "connected to" they percieve it as an astral presence/feeling.

Additionally, a guru/master can percieve/operate in a duality framework. The world does not disappear.

:smile:


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