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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:46 am 
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I think the problem is not so much that 'realised teachers' indulge in misconduct; it is more that their followers are led to believe their Guru is realised when he is actually dodgy.

Now 'seeing your Guru as Buddha' is fine. It's an integral part of lineages and I wholly support it.

However, my comment relates to such circumstances as the Guru leading his followers to believe in their enlightened condition in order, for example, to persuade them that having sex with him, an enlightened being, will improve their Vajrayana practice immeasurably. If after the sex the promised improvement doesn't happen it will be the student's 'fault' for failing to think of their Guru as an enlightened being.

There is a modern lineage where this has happened with very senior teachers not once, not twice, but 3 times, so one may conclude that something is especially wrong with that lineage, or that other lineages cover it up better.

In a sense, the OP begins with a non sequitur - a fully enlightened mind unable to control the behaviour of its human body. No, such Gurus are just ordinary and often very skilled at playing the role of one who is special. Someone sitting on a throne with a beatific smile teaching beautiful Dharma wisdom can just as easily be pretending as someone who is a fake doctor - some people just have the charisma, intelligence and balls to pull it off. The trouble is that their students then have a choice - continue to believe that he is using skilful means or whatever, or accept that they have spent years following a fake. The best path for such disciples in those circumstances is to fall back on their Refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha and understand that the teachings are still wise and good, but the teacher who gave them is no longer an object of Refuge but an object of compassion.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:01 am 
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I think it is possible to see a teacher mundaine by focussing too much on the outer form. It then is difficult and we can need help and checking work to know about the master genuine practice. Still focussing merely on all substantial achievements, papers, famousness, is a bit a kind of mundaine habitual doing.

There are practicioners who turned in a blow of, sorry to use that word again; devotion, and prostrate for the Guru. But they didn't see the Guru in details, maybe a smile of his face was 'experienced', still no fixation to see the human appaerance, neither to feel ones' body prostrating. A faith flowing as faith in once own nature.
There were-are practicioners who meet masters their blessings, without knowing their name, without anything more then pure selfless love. Then there is no name to cling to neither. Easy, one job already done.

There is lots of talk about wrong ones, but what is so important is to not lose trust in ones genuine master, or to make others lose trust in their master. At least we can rejoice for all of us, meeting the Buddhas' teachings.

Blabla...Sure, one difference between beings like me and emanations is that I have so much cleverness to say and they only 'talk' to awaken.

PS Right now, just reading blue Garuda post, we may say NO to the master, isn't? We should do so when we feel not to understand his meaning, or when we doubt in practice whether genuine or not... Then we politely can/must say that or repeat checking....
:anjali:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:33 am 
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[quote="Blue Garuda"]I think the problem is not so much that 'realised teachers' indulge in misconduct; it is more that their followers are led to believe their Guru is realised when he is actually dodgy.
quote]

When there is a strong sense of self or grasping, we easier see other selves and judge them or rely on them based on our preference, or based on fitting with our habitual thinking. Even when a Buddha should be there, not so easy to see 'him', maybe he is ignored or even need correct teachings.
Also possible there is no connection with the master, can be.
Or we can by fixation years following a teacher we admire but remain clinging.
The reliances are a helpful guideline.

Compassion. :thanks: 84000 teachings for all of us.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Some gnu age gurus are clearly off their pedestals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo

Others are supported by an inclination towards gullibility.

Buddhism should attempt well being
at all levels.

Many of us have heard great teachings.
Some have clearly been duped into superstition and ignorance.

I think we get what we deserve - I believe this is called karma. :shrug:

There are sufficient meritorious teachers and teachings.
If we are subdued or attracted to falsity, this should be indicative of our nature . . . :namaste:

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