On needing a shower after logging on.

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby Simon E. » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:25 am

I have been a member of this forum for a short time only.
I am astonished at the degree of sheer unpleasantness which appears on these pages...
And in the name of Dharma !
There is the blatant and unreformed sexism and chauvinism to a degree currently and happily
rare in modern society.
There is the equally blatant racism.
There is the remarkable degree of homophobia.
There is the credulous acceptance of medieval cosmology.
There is the anti-science and anti-western bias.
In many ways it has been a timely and sharp reminder of the reasons I no longer
consider myself a Buddhist.
To be sure there is also much that is positive and helpful, and many contributors who
indicate wisdom and maturity..
But much of the time its like wading through a sewer to get to a clear spring..
Its not for me..

Good wishes to all.

:namaste:
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby plwk » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:41 am

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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby Seishin » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:02 am

It's what happens when you search for diamonds or gold. You have to sift through tonnes of crap! :twothumbsup:

I don't think it's anything to do with Buddhism, but to do with the fact that we have people from all over the world here with different cultural views and different views on what is or isn't Buddhism. Labelling ourselves as "buddhist" doesn't automatically make us good people. That takes a lot of time and practice and I'm willing to bet that most of those good people don't even bother with the internet :tongue:

Gassho,
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby odysseus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:04 am

I´m new myself and I get what you mean although I have´nt seen everything you mention. But it´s clear that this forum is not for children, that´s kind of a personal concern.

If you think people are being divisive and harsh, you could always do the "tusker approach" and be a pratyeka-buddha but it seems you already made up your mind. Anyway, enlightenment will always be there waiting for you...

Welcome back. :hi:
It´s our duty as sentient beings to fight evil!

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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:24 am

Simon E. wrote:I have been a member of this forum for a short time only.
I am astonished at the degree of sheer unpleasantness which appears on these pages...
And in the name of Dharma !
There is the blatant and unreformed sexism and chauvinism to a degree currently and happily
rare in modern society.
There is the equally blatant racism.
There is the remarkable degree of homophobia.
There is the credulous acceptance of medieval cosmology.
There is the anti-science and anti-western bias.
In many ways it has been a timely and sharp reminder of the reasons I no longer
consider myself a Buddhist.
To be sure there is also much that is positive and helpful, and many contributors who
indicate wisdom and maturity..
But much of the time its like wading through a sewer to get to a clear spring..
Its not for me..

Good wishes to all.

:namaste:


Not sure what you mean by 'in the name of Dharma'?

The rest is samsara manifesting here as it does everywhere else. Unsubstantiated accusations and generalisations are pointless. Report what you think is unsuitable for a Buddhist forum and the ToS instead of bleating.

Medieval cosmology? Oh, if you mean that which came from India you've a few thousand years to catch up on methinks, and I'm afraid that some of your own comments on rebirth etc. show your own intolerant and angry attitude to the views of others, including Buddha.
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby Simon E. » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:06 pm

And a special big thank you to you " Blue Garuda " for helping me resolve any lingering doubts about this being a place where I would want to spend any more time.
I will leave you with your fantasies and irascibility and hypersensitivity and paranoia...
Frankly with friends like you Buddhism doesn't need enemies..
:rolling:

:namaste:
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:02 pm

Simon E. wrote:I have been a member of this forum for a short time only.
I am astonished at the degree of sheer unpleasantness which appears on these pages...
And in the name of Dharma !
There is the blatant and unreformed sexism and chauvinism to a degree currently and happily
rare in modern society.
There is the equally blatant racism.
There is the remarkable degree of homophobia.
There is the credulous acceptance of medieval cosmology.
There is the anti-science and anti-western bias.
In many ways it has been a timely and sharp reminder of the reasons I no longer
consider myself a Buddhist.
To be sure there is also much that is positive and helpful, and many contributors who
indicate wisdom and maturity..
But much of the time its like wading through a sewer to get to a clear spring..
Its not for me..

Good wishes to all.

:namaste:


I share your woes. But we need you here, Simon. There's some racism here, some chauvinism, some homophobia, some sexism and more than some typical convert mentality. Don't let it become greater still.

Also, out there in the meat space things are grimmer still. Here is as good place as any to try change things a little - or at least prevent them from getting much worse.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:36 pm

Simon E. wrote:And a special big thank you to you " Blue Garuda " for helping me resolve any lingering doubts about this being a place where I would want to spend any more time.
I will leave you with your fantasies and irascibility and hypersensitivity and paranoia...
Frankly with friends like you Buddhism doesn't need enemies..
:rolling:

:namaste:



Hypocritical cant and obfuscation.

You have shown great intolerance and rudeness over several issue and have the temerity to say this forum is at fault for having members who are intolerant, rude and prejudiced.......like yourself, and most humans, my friend. ;)

You are also inconsistent when attacking others, for example supporting the 3 lifetime model and then calling such beliefs in things you have not personally experienced 'hallucionations (spirits) and 'piss poor science' (rebirth). You said :

''And both the One Lifetime model and Three Lifetime model makes perfect sense to me. With no mental contortions at all, just a knowledge of cultural context and a willingness to go beyond the literal. ''

''The "bias " is against piss-poor science.
If your religious belief includes a belief in things not personally experienced consciously like reincarnation, so be it.''


Stay or leave, but instead you launch a provocative thread, probably for the buzz you seem to get out of arguing. Do carry on. I've no more to add except to suggest that you hold up the mirror and try not to argue with your reflection. ;)
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby Yudron » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:27 pm

You might mike the Unitarian Church... liberals who like to debate.
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:49 pm

I'm not sure you need to leave the forum. Friends, enemies, Internet - all empty forms. Plenty of people here appreciate your posts. I would keep at it.
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby odysseus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:01 pm

A little advice for everybody: When you´re on the internet, just be comfortable mm-kay? It´s supposed to be a place to relax.

:rules:
It´s our duty as sentient beings to fight evil!

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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby seeker242 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:27 pm

Simon E. wrote:In many ways it has been a timely and sharp reminder of the reasons I no longer
consider myself a Buddhist.


Is there a difference between "Buddhists" and "Buddhism"? I think so. :)
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby undefineable » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:38 pm

Simon E. wrote:There is the blatant and unreformed sexism and chauvinism to a degree currently and happily
rare in modern society.
There is the equally blatant racism.
There is the remarkable degree of homophobia.


Can't say I've seen much nastiness, here, that hasn't come from a certain very-entertaining ex-member or perhaps a couple of 'homophobic' ex-Christian repressed homosexuals. And this coming from someone (me) who wrote a couple of essays as a teenager (yeah, I know that hasn't changed, lol) for my eyes only, and did so by addressing none other than the 'evils' of those four phenomena. {This was the early 90s, just before UK 'society' finally wrapped up a considered response to such prejudices.}

Simon E. wrote:There is the anti-science and anti-western bias.


Buddhism has its origins in what we westerners call the Orient. It forms a kind of 'science' more than it does a religion, but does not accept the post-postmodern self-deception that all understanding necessarily comes from a strict adherence to the empirical scientific method. Therefore, those who do call themselves Buddhists are likely to express doubts that all conceivable positive culture and understanding must have their origins in Europe. This obviously breaks taboos, which means that such comments are already pre-labelled as expressing whatever ideas are currently unacceptable, despite clearly having nothing to do with them on a literal reading.

Honestly, I don't see that I owe any blind intellectual loyalty to any of the cultural heritage of my country, as long as I make a full effort to play a part in the activities of the society it belongs to and which surrounds me. Some might even say that, as an autistic, I owe society less than even that form of 'loyalty', since the message rammed down my throat (as I read it 'between the lines' while growing up) was always "you must play a full part in society, but you won't be able to do that duty (or indeed do anything substantial) unless you learn to constantly manipulate others through your communication" (something all autistics are innately unable to do beyond a basic level, as well as something that turns out to be less essential, in many fields, than we were all led to believe).

Since you claim to be an academic and scientific professional, I feel very queezy about your blind faith in matters that others have merely guessed at, for example the falsehood of astrology that you were mouthing off about on another thread recently. {Astrology, along with fairies and the like, form falsifiable scientific hypotheses which can now be rested on scientifically-verified truths such as gravity and multiple dimensions, and which will therefore take big technological advances to finally disprove - Both blind faith and blind dismissal are therefore inappropriate, here, in the context of actual science.}

On the other hand, I've noticed that 'science', here, is often as shorthand for 'unscientific prejudices taken to be pro-scienctific by those who hold them'. {If everyone wrote like philosophers, as I often end up doing, no-one would bother reading!} Likewise, frustration with the 'tribulations' of a life influenced by US culture ends up just forming part of the US Left's anti-western rhetoric. So I can partly see where you're coming from, although I tend not to read from the 'meaty' threads on core Buddhist topics that might explain the more serious of your concerns.

I can't see that any of the prejudices you mentioned have any place in Buddhism. This isn't comparable to how it is in Christianity, where peaceable claims have to be weighed against scripture that mandates genocide - There's just too much Budddhist scripture and teaching that implicitly -or explicitly- rules out justification for the kind of prejudices you mentioned, and not enough (none I've come across) that support it. At the same time, the sangha have no justification within lay Buddhism to punish those who claim to be Buddhist while voicing prejudices - Perhaps more female mods, as was suggested on another thread, might help tone down some of the harshness you sense, particularly if they helped form a new forum. For example, I think I recall atleast one member voicing a certain stereotype of mental health professionals whilst debating you recently; a 'mod board' more concerned to protect the reputation of Buddhadharma -as well as its members' feelings- might simply have removed that comment while sending a polite PM to its writer-?
Last edited by undefineable on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:53 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby pueraeternus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:40 pm

Simon E. wrote:I will leave you with your fantasies and irascibility and hypersensitivity and paranoia...
Frankly with friends like you Buddhism doesn't need enemies..


So it appears the problem really lies with yourself?
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby undefineable » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:14 pm

odysseus wrote:A little advice for everybody: When you´re on the internet, just be comfortable mm-kay? It´s supposed to be a place to relax.


:applause:
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:44 pm

undefineable wrote:
odysseus wrote:A little advice for everybody: When you´re on the internet, just be comfortable mm-kay? It´s supposed to be a place to relax.


:applause:


There speaks a man who never tried internet banking! LOL :)
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby dharmagoat » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:32 pm

If your mind is a jungle, then you live in a jungle.

(There is that stink again.)
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:43 pm

Simon E. wrote:I am astonished at the degree of sheer unpleasantness which appears on these pages... And in the name of Dharma!


Me too. Oftentimes if someone doesn't agree with someone else here, there are some, who, instead of replying civilly, throw a tantrum.


There is the blatant and unreformed sexism and chauvinism to a degree currently and happily rare in modern society.


Where?


There is the credulous acceptance of medieval cosmology.


"Medieval" is nothing more than an emotionally charged word thrown at it merely because one doesn't agree with it, which is a logical fallacy.

And, by the way, not all ancient cosmologies were meant to be taken literally either.


There is the equally blatant racism.
There is the remarkable degree of homophobia.


"Phobia", another logcial fallacy.

Anyway, not much more to say here, we agree to disagree.


There is the anti-science and anti-western bias.


Some of us simply don't have blind faith in contemporary science.

Also, the ancients knew the Scientific Method as well, they just didn't apply it outwardly as much as contemporary scientists do; the ancients who knew it applied it more inwardly.

Anyway, let's look at the effects of western modernism:

Massive pollution, nuclear bombs, pesticides on almost all our (often GMO) food, fluoride and chlorine in our water supplies, big pharma poisoning people and dumbing them down with their "medicine", constant western imperialism (the U.S., Israeli, and many European countries are constantly invading other countries without even declaring war, while the average citizen watches stupid shows on TV and buys a bunch of cheap wasteful crap from Walmart made in sweatshops in China, and huge gas guzzling trucks, boats, four-wheelers, etc.)

I'm not saying that there's nothing good about the contemporary world; it's just that the bad is obviously out-weighing the good in the "external" world.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:06 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby Ogyen » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:47 pm

I think there's a quote that goes something like... we don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.

These forums are a perfect exercise in meeting our own unconscious material, our projections, all the things we reject as the things about ourselves we have not yet had the fortitude to stomach. If you have the stomach for the sewage, you will find the clear spring. If you don't, you will always swim in the sewage with your hands over your eyes hoping to find a clear spring out there sometime, somewhere.

:namaste:
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Re: On needing a shower after logging on.

Postby tomamundsen » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:29 pm

Ogyen wrote:I think there's a quote that goes something like... we don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.

These forums are a perfect exercise in meeting our own unconscious material, our projections, all the things we reject as the things about ourselves we have not yet had the fortitude to stomach. If you have the stomach for the sewage, you will find the clear spring. If you don't, you will always swim in the sewage with your hands over your eyes hoping to find a clear spring out there sometime, somewhere.

:namaste:

:good:
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