Other Turnings of the Wheel?

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Other Turnings of the Wheel?

Postby Quiet Heart » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:36 am

:smile:
This seems like a good place to raise this topic.....as I'm aware to some it might be a little controversial.

Especially I ask this to the poster known as pemachophel who mentioned this topic in another unrelated post.
Anyway I'm looking for any opinions and especially information on this topic....

Other (further) turnings of the wheel.
As in the Wheel of Dharma?

Thanks in advance for any infomation provided.
:smile:

reason for editing: typos
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach
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Re: Other Turnings of the Wheel?

Postby Indrajala » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:10 am

By the Buddha's own admission he was not the first buddha in this world.

The previous buddha was called Kāśyapa. The future buddha will be Maitreya.

As the narrative goes, the teachings of the past buddha are all but forgotten when a new buddha arises to discover them.

When the buddhadharma is unknown in our world, a new buddha will discover it and turn the Wheel of Dharma.
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Re: Other Turnings of the Wheel?

Postby Quiet Heart » Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:46 am

:smile:
Thanks Huseng for that information.

Probably, because I was in a hurry when I started this topic, I didn't explain exactly what I wanted clearly enough.
That was my fault.
Let me see if I can make what I'm looking for any clearer.

I began with Zen as my introduction to Buddisim. I've "studied" or practiced Zen for roughly a decade. I guess you coild say that's been the core of ny study of Buddhisim.
I happen to live in Thailand now, and therefore I'm being exposed to Theravada...and finding things there that are little "flowers" or gems of understanding that I missed there before.
I've dabbled around in some of the aspects of Mahayana also, and there are clearly some gems of understanding there too.
Vajrayana is something I've just been introduced to...and that looks interesting also, at least at first glance.
I know I've bounced around a lot, and I'm aware that along the way there are many "flowers" that I missed.
One of the concepts that I just heard in passing was the idea of the
"turning of the wheel of the Dharma in the heart"...and with that the concept of the "further turnngs of the wheel" in the heart.
In this explanation the "first turning of the wheel in the heart" is Theravada, the 2nd turning in the heart is Mahayana, and the supposed 3rd turning is in Vajrayana.
But I am only repeating what is my somewhat confused undersatnding of what was said there.
That is why I'm looking for information and some clarification on this matter.
That's why I'm asking for information.
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach
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Re: Other Turnings of the Wheel?

Postby viniketa » Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:03 am

Quiet Heart wrote:One of the concepts that I just heard in passing was the idea of the
"turning of the wheel of the Dharma in the heart"...and with that the concept of the "further turnngs of the wheel" in the heart.
In this explanation the "first turning of the wheel in the heart" is Theravada, the 2nd turning in the heart is Mahayana, and the supposed 3rd turning is in Vajrayana.


This is certainly one understanding of a "personal" wheel turning that reflects the universal turning of the Dharma wheel by Buddha(s). However, if one is investigating differing traditions, it might be wise to also look a non-sectarian Buddhism, including Rimé and Ekayāna.

:smile:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Other Turnings of the Wheel?

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:21 am

Quiet Heart wrote:....I've dabbled around in some of the aspects of Mahayana also, and there are clearly some gems of understanding there too.
Vajrayana is something I've just been introduced to...and that looks interesting also, at least at first glance.....
:smile:


All of the turnings are based on the foundation of lack of self-identity. The second and third turnings are more like the consequences of this foundation of lack of self-identity.
Where is this lack of self-identity realized? It's realized in the heart as an inspiration. Mahayana teachings build on this inspiration and Vajrayana teachings build on the inspiration of the Mahayana teachings. But fundamentally dharma in it's many forms comes down to an understanding of lack of self-identity and with that understanding a type of inspiration arises. When one looks at experiences using that inspiration, then all the turnings are complete and understandable. It's only doctrine that says one way is different. The meaning of the words of Ajahn Chah and Buddhadasabhikku are the same as those of Trungpa Rinpoche and HH Karmapa. They all come from the same source of inspiration.
So you plug into that source of inspiration. Look at your own experiences using that source of inspiration and you join with the source of inspiration. Dharma becomes a lived experience.
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Re: Other Turnings of the Wheel?

Postby pemachophel » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:31 pm

Vajrayana Buddhists believe that there were three Turnings of the Wheel of Dharma during the life of Shakyamuni. The first Turning comprises what Mahayanists refer to as the Hinayana scriptures. The second Turning comprises the Mahayana sutras, and the third Turning comprises the tantras. Vajrayanists believe all of these are valid words of the Buddha/Buddhas. However, when there are conflicts of seeming meaning, Mahayanists believe the Mahayana scriptures supercede the Hinayana scriptures. Similarly, for Vajrayanists, the esoteric tantras supercede both the Hinayana and exoteric Mahayana scriptures. In mentioning the three Turnings of the Wheel, I was cautioning not to criticize practices contained in one of the later Turnings based on statements in one of the previous Turnings.

Of course, if one is not a Mahayanist or a Vajrayanist, then they are perfectly free to reject teachings from these later Turnings. If one only accepts the scriptures of the foundational vehicle, the so-called Hinayana (i.e., the schools of the Theravada, Sarvastavada, and the other 16 schools), then the Mahayana and Vajrayana scriptures are apocryphal.

I hope this clears up what I was implying in my original response to the thread on "superstition." It seemed to me the OP in that thread was accepting only the Hinayana scriptures as valid "words of the Buddha." I was trying to point out that, depending on one's POV, there are actually three different categories of "words of the Buddhas" if one is a Vajrayanist. Sorry if I was inept in that attempt.

:namaste:
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Re: Other Turnings of the Wheel?

Postby Quiet Heart » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:46 am

pemachophel wrote:Vajrayana Buddhists believe that there were three Turnings of the Wheel of Dharma during the life of Shakyamuni. The first Turning comprises what Mahayanists refer to as the Hinayana scriptures. The second Turning comprises the Mahayana sutras, and the third Turning comprises the tantras. Vajrayanists believe all of these are valid words of the Buddha/Buddhas. However, when there are conflicts of seeming meaning, Mahayanists believe the Mahayana scriptures supercede the Hinayana scriptures. Similarly, for Vajrayanists, the esoteric tantras supercede both the Hinayana and exoteric Mahayana scriptures. In mentioning the three Turnings of the Wheel, I was cautioning not to criticize practices contained in one of the later Turnings based on statements in one of the previous Turnings.

Of course, if one is not a Mahayanist or a Vajrayanist, then they are perfectly free to reject teachings from these later Turnings. If one only accepts the scriptures of the foundational vehicle, the so-called Hinayana (i.e., the schools of the Theravada, Sarvastavada, and the other 16 schools), then the Mahayana and Vajrayana scriptures are apocryphal.

I hope this clears up what I was implying in my original response to the thread on "superstition." It seemed to me the OP in that thread was accepting only the Hinayana scriptures as valid "words of the Buddha." I was trying to point out that, depending on one's POV, there are actually three different categories of "words of the Buddhas" if one is a Vajrayanist. Sorry if I was inept in that attempt.

:namaste:

:smile:
Thanks pemachophel .....that's the information I was looking for.
What I found searching on the net was contradictory and confusing.
That is also why I put the question/topic here....because I expected it to be a bit controversial.
But like I said before...it's just the information I want...so I can investigate it myself.

And also thank you to all who answered.
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach
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