Another rebirth thread

[muni]

"Concept alive" interdependency=> dynamic processes.

Whether there is delusion or not: awareness is, or awareness is sleeping.

Mind stream purification, whether there is spontaneous warmth toward all or not in action.

Purify own mind, compassion for all; not opposite.

[ground]

Oh boy, you have some very lively interdependent concepts on stock

[muni]

Okay Mingyur.

[Ngawang Drolma]

Moderator note: Please refrain from personal attacks. Further posts of this nature will be removed without notice to keep the conversation running smoothly without interruption.

[muni]

No selfexistence ever arises (birth).

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Deat ... Dalai_Lama

[kirtu]

With no rebirth, where is there duhkha?

With no rebirth there is still duhkha.

Consider the cases of six beings born in the six realms but who live exactly once: all six still have their respective experiences in their realms. The realms themselves are the nature of suffering (argumentation from scripture). Therefore in this thought experiment sentient beings would experience duhkha even if there were no rebirth. This thought experiment is valid for Buddhists and I'm pretty sure all Dharmic religions.

Consider the case advanced by physicallist atheists: humans and animals are born in their environments exactly once and all experience is experienced as brain phenomena. Duhkha in the physicalist atheist view is psychological and personal trauma in the present.

Humans and animals still experience all the forms of ignorance, desire and aversion and they experience an impending but unknown time of death. So humans and animals in the physicallist atheist view still experience duhkha because they are subject to at least fear of death. Humans and animals observed to live in permanent familiar bonds like some birds experience duhkha upon the loss of loved ones. So humans and some animals in this view experience the duhkha due to loss and change. Humans often experience duhkha due to changes esp. with the arising of a negative environment for them personally (loss of money, housing, positive circumstances, etc.). Humans experience duhkha due to forms of aversion because these forms of aversion have deleterious effects on the body and the mind. Humans experience duhkha due to many forms of desire for the same reason. Even though this duhkha exists for the physicalist atheist only in this life experience they would still concede a form of duhkha.

Therefore duhkha exists both for Buddhists (and probably all Dharmic people) and atheistis even if there were no rebirth.

Kirt

[ground]

With no rebirth, where is there duhkha?

With no rebirth there is still duhkha.

Because there is "birth".

Therefore duhkha exists both for Buddhists (and probably all Dharmic people) and atheistis even if there were no rebirth.

"Dukkha" exists as long as "birth" exists. If "birth" ceases then "dukkha" ceases.

But that does not necessarily entail that the one for whom "birth" ceases will never be "reborn". However "deluded actions" will cease being the cause(s) for "rebirth" for whom "birth" ceases.

Kind regards

[Indrajala]

It is quite simple: the skandhas, conditioned by klesha (defilements) and actions (karma) carry on. There need not be a soul for rebirth to take place. There is no fixed identity within the process which is a sentient being, but there is continuity. In other words continuity of the aggregates without fixed identity.

Take a look at what Vasubandhu said about a related question:

[muni]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcreHtR3 ... re=related

When there is a beginning, an ending, how can there be Suchness other than that "Suchness" is just a fabrication in the mindstream of being? And then there must be a kind of solidity, an independency. Or all what is compounded will desintegrate into nothingnesses.

Transformation!

I think this Vietnamese Master Thich Nath Hanh is explaining it very simple and very clear.

Then we can take a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6p7miET ... re=related

[Aemilius]

What do you think? What transmigrates

It is helpful to approach the question with an insentient being/subject, like for example a Car. Car is a momentary phenomenon, car of this moment ceases and car of the next moment arises, car of the past moment is no more. Car of the future moment is different from the car of the present moment, still it arises basing on the car of the present moment. Car of each moment is materially different, there are subtle processes that change it constantly, there is no "same" car at all.
Similarly, a human being is momentary, past being is substantially different from the present one, future human being is substantially different from the present one. Nothing from the past being moves to the present, nothing from the present being moves to the future, there is no "same" human. Cells in the human body change, disintegrate and rebuild themselves every second of one's life.
Nothing from this life moves to the next life, it is like a seal making an impression on wax. There is an exact impression on the wax ( of next life) but the seal (of this life) is not transferred. (The example is from the Sutra of the Seedling of Rice, The Salistambha sutra)

[5heaps]

It is helpful to approach the question with an insentient being/subject, like for example a Car. Car is a momentary phenomenon, car of this moment ceases and car of the next moment arises, car of the past moment is no more.

that's not true because the car of the previous moment exists as a no longer happening applicable to the car in the present moment.

Car of the future moment is different from the car of the present moment, still it arises basing on the car of the present moment.

it's the same car. just because it has different parts doesn't necessitate that it is no longer the same car. just because you might lose a finger doesn't mean that you're no longer yourself.

just because functioning things are not static, unchanging, or things which can endure over time through their own power, does not mean that things can't maintain an identity or continue to function in the ways that they do.

[Aemilius]

It is helpful to approach the question with an insentient being/subject, like for example a Car. Car is a momentary phenomenon, car of this moment ceases and car of the next moment arises, car of the past moment is no more.
"that's not true because the car of the previous moment exists as a no longer happening applicable to the car in the present moment."

" a no-longer happening" is something that does not exist. If you put before an indefinite article does not make it an existing thing. A deceased person is still deceased.

Car of the future moment is different from the car of the present moment, it arises based on the car of the present moment.

"it's the same car. just because it has different parts doesn't necessitate that it is no longer the same car. just because you might lose a finger doesn't mean that you're no longer yourself."

If you are called by same name today as you were called yesterday does not make you identical to the person of yesterday. It is merely a convention to call things and persons " same" persons or things. Essentially they are different.

Identity does not exist independently ( of someone identifying persons or things).

"just because functioning things are not static, unchanging, or things which can endure over time through their own power, does not mean that things can't maintain an identity or continue to function in the ways that they do."

[m0rl0ck]

What do you think? What transmigrates?

Nothing. If i get up and make a cup of tea the universe is slightly different. If i live and die, the universe is slightly different and what happens after is somewhat dependent on the miniscule alterations i made in causality. Thats all the transmigration you get imo.

If one delusive self is a mistake in perception, how much more so trying to project that over the past and future. Come to think of it im not even sure about the existence of past and future, just movies in your mind really. Bearing who knows what relation to "reality".

This is it. Nobody reading this is going anywhere. Your self view is just a conceptual mistake. What you have is now.

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Oh man it felt so good to say that If i was a dog my tail would be waggin'.

Well, this not being that other place, which i wont name, (just superstitious i guess), Im pretty sure i wont be banned for not towing the party line, so ill just make that cuppa and lean back while you all work on straightening me out

[muni]

What do you think? What transmigrates?

Nothing. If i get up and make a cup of tea the universe is slightly different. If i live and die, the universe is slightly different and what happens after is somewhat dependent on the miniscule alterations i made in causality. Thats all the transmigration you get imo.

If one delusive self is a mistake in perception, how much more so trying to project that over the past and future. Come to think of it im not even sure about the existence of past and future, just movies in your mind really. Bearing who knows what relation to "reality".

This is it. Nobody reading this is going anywhere. Your self view is just a conceptual mistake. What you have is now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh man it felt so good to say that If i was a dog my tail would be waggin'.

Well, this not being that other place, which i wont name, (just superstitious i guess), Im pretty sure i wont be banned for not towing the party line, so ill just make that cuppa and lean back while you all work on straightening me out

Along investigation of contrived concepts passed, future, now, something and nothing; the limits of creativity (artificial quality) can be seen.

[retrofuturist]

I'm about to transmigrate to the kitchen for a cup of tea.

Metta,
Retro.

[muni]

To reject rebirth through limitations of fabrications is very human. When we see the quality of those fabrications; like clouds in the sky, we see the fabrications aren't changing nature.

I mean, when we have not experienced powerful recognitions, remembrances as places, names...; we cannot simple through conceptual investigation take conclusions and reject rebirth, or whatever we call it.

Therefore to listen (!!!) to those who powerfully and often clear experienced "flashes of before " in childhood,
and when we see clear through the quality of own limited logical mind. Then no need to prove something.

Whether or not this makes any sense.

[catmoon]

What do you think? What transmigrates?

A baseball player hits a home run. What transmigrates from the bat to the ball?

[termite]

What do you think? What transmigrates?

A baseball player hits a home run. What transmigrates from the bat to the ball?

The roar of the crowd.

It's all "time" and "motion," isn't it? Where and what is that? What is "past"? What is "future"? Maybe the answers to those questions point to something.

[dave]

The principal mind-stream which is in constant change from one moment to the next, is never different nor is it the same. What happens after death is the same principal what happens now in your mind while you are living.
Mind change constantly.
You are left with the principal mind-stream. One moment of the mind-stream gives rise to the next moment of the mind-stream. The chain of the moments is, what we know as mind. To die and to take rebirth follows the same scheme.

[termite]

The principal mind-stream which is in constant change from one moment to the next, is never different nor is it the same.

I don't think you can separate "change" from "time." What you're calling "mind-stream," it seems to me, is nothing other than the manifestation of time itself. Time is inseparable from this mind. The "next moment" is co-created with the mind that perceives it.