the matter of life and death

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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby dakini_boi » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:20 pm

padma norbu wrote:there is an "end of the universe" period where EVERYTHING is destroyed, including the Buddhas, and it starts all over again. So? What is the point, really? We are just delaying the crystallization process for a while, but infinity is a longass time.


The whole point of a Buddha is that it can never be destroyed, because it is unconditioned, therefore unaffected by any phenomena. If what you said were true, then there would be no point at all in Buddhism - at least by its own standards of what matters.
Last edited by dakini_boi on Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby dakini_boi » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:22 pm

Nangwa wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:
Nangwa, would you be willing to elaborate please?


Sure.
Changchub Dorje was probably the most long lived person in recorded history.
He used the methods available to him to extend his life and provided future generations with (in my opinion) the most generous lama in the history of this world system other than the 14th Dalai Lama.

The benefit we can provide others by cherishing and using our own lives for their benefit can extend into the future without limitations if we live by their examples.


Thank you, Nangwa. I see your point!
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:48 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
padma norbu wrote:there is an "end of the universe" period where EVERYTHING is destroyed, including the Buddhas, and it starts all over again. So? What is the point, really? We are just delaying the crystallization process for a while, but infinity is a longass time.


The whole point of a Buddha is that it can never be destroyed, because it is unconditioned, therefore unaffected by any phenomena. If what you said were true, then there would be no point at all in Buddhism - at least by its own standards of what matters.


That's what I thought until I read Namdrol's post and when I asked him if the Buddhas are destroyed, too, his response was not quite as definite as yours. He said something like "what does it matter?" which suggested to me that, even if that is the case, there's no point struggling against reality, it's still the best option out there. Sorry, I don't have the thread bookmarked.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:52 pm

FOUND IT: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6554&p=78315&hilit=destroyed#p78315

"that is one of the 14 questions."
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby duckfiasco » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:07 pm

padma norbu wrote:I'm talking about the basic underlying ideas in a cold, clinical manner. Like Spock. Yes, we are talking about dissatisfaction, but let's talk about it in a cold, clinical way, as if we are trying to stop certain chemical agents from crystalizing.
Now, if we can stop them from crystalizing at stage 1 in the process where previously we had almost immediate flash-crystallization, we would be happy. But, if by the end of stage 3 crystallization occurs, anyway, near the very end of our 3-stage procedure, then we would say this process is not really working how we want since it only extends the period of time that crystallization doesn't occur..

I appreciate that my style may not be helpful. Thank you for soldiering on with me despite that :P

Let's not forget that cold, clinical thoughts remain thoughts. They have the same limitations as any other thought. At some point, you have to look up from the map and explore for yourself.

If things were entirely as you describe them, there would be no point in practicing the Precepts. The Precepts are simultaneously a cessation of creating more bad karma, and an imitation of behavior congruous to our innate Buddha-nature. Doing as Buddha and being as Buddha are the same thing. You can condition the subtler points of mind through outward actions and choices.

How this relates to your point is that we are all already in stage 3, otherwise we would not be compelled to practice by the suffering in our lives. This suggests that the point of the Precepts is not to somehow undo this suffering. Despite what we may want to get rid of in striving for nirvana, nirvana is right under our noses in the same garbage we call suffering. We can cherish life while we die, speak gently while we are ridiculed. This is where Buddhism is different than other religions: the point is not to revert to stage 1, nor to achieve something better than stage 3. All stages are ultimately the same in terms of our enlightenment.

Using your metaphor, we accept that we have allowed crystallization to a huge degree in our lives. Then we stop the struggle, the friction creating still more crystals. It is this constant thrashing about in our lives, in creating bad karma, troublesome mental knots, etc., that prevents Right View and therefore the entire path. Holding to our ideas about nirvana/samsara prevents nirvana and ensures samsara. Our usual methodology itself is wrong... that is what's meant by "stop thinking."

Also, the Buddhas that you suggest would be destroyed would not mind being destroyed, so there is no issue. To say that the eventual destruction of the universe makes the whole exercise pointless is to use one thought to describe experience of countless beings, including your own. The thought gives a feeling that it is basic and above reproach. But if it causes doubt and suffering, then look at the framework of assumptions that gave rise to that thought. Don't just leave it at that. Like I said, that would be like letting yesterday's lunch impede your spiritual progress.

You're getting into day-to-day happiness, which is irrelevant to me.

We are day-to-day beings. It only seems irrelevant when our thoughts take us into utter abstraction.

The next time you feel anger or physical pain, ask what the end of the universe has to do with that moment. It is good to explore and question the dharma mentally. It is better to see for yourself.

I hope this was helpful in some way.
Please take the above post with a grain of salt.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:12 pm

...it's one of the 14 questions. That is all.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:32 pm

*Edit*

Never mind....
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby duckfiasco » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:07 pm

In that case, I hope you find what you're looking for. :cheers:
Please take the above post with a grain of salt.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby dakini_boi » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:38 pm

padma norbu wrote:
That's what I thought until I read Namdrol's post and when I asked him if the Buddhas are destroyed, too, his response was not quite as definite as yours. He said something like "what does it matter?" which suggested to me that, even if that is the case, there's no point struggling against reality, it's still the best option out there. Sorry, I don't have the thread bookmarked.


That's funny, I thnk I read in another of Namdrol's posts that fully enlightened buddhas will not revert to samsara even after the destruction of the universe. Think about it, if buddhahood is not permanent, then a buddha's reality would be samsara, by definition. So there would be nothing other than sentient beings of the 6 realms. Therefore there would be no buddha. I tend to take this on faith, that buddhahood is possible and that it is permanent, because otherwise. . . it's just too depressing :cry:
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:55 pm

Yeah there's a link to one of the said posts that's found here:

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=7535&start=20#p90558
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Malcolm » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:01 am

dakini_boi wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
That's what I thought until I read Namdrol's post and when I asked him if the Buddhas are destroyed, too, his response was not quite as definite as yours. He said something like "what does it matter?" which suggested to me that, even if that is the case, there's no point struggling against reality, it's still the best option out there. Sorry, I don't have the thread bookmarked.


That's funny, I thnk I read in another of Namdrol's posts that fully enlightened buddhas will not revert to samsara even after the destruction of the universe.


What I said was that fully awakened buddhas never revert to the basis, as opposed to all those with lesser or no realization.

The basis however possesses compassion, so whenever there are sentient beings, buddhas appear. But the division between samsara and nirvana is merely the deluded vision of sentient beings. There is no samsara and nirvana in the basis.

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Nighthawk » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:54 am

dakini_boi wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
That's what I thought until I read Namdrol's post and when I asked him if the Buddhas are destroyed, too, his response was not quite as definite as yours. He said something like "what does it matter?" which suggested to me that, even if that is the case, there's no point struggling against reality, it's still the best option out there. Sorry, I don't have the thread bookmarked.


That's funny, I thnk I read in another of Namdrol's posts that fully enlightened buddhas will not revert to samsara even after the destruction of the universe. Think about it, if buddhahood is not permanent, then a buddha's reality would be samsara, by definition. So there would be nothing other than sentient beings of the 6 realms. Therefore there would be no buddha. I tend to take this on faith, that buddhahood is possible and that it is permanent, because otherwise. . . it's just too depressing :cry:


So you're saying there is such a thing as not fully enlightened Buddhas? One is either a fully enlightened Buddha or not. There is no in between.

Is this some Dzogchen teaching?
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Nighthawk » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:44 am

padma norbu wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:
padma norbu wrote:there is an "end of the universe" period where EVERYTHING is destroyed, including the Buddhas, and it starts all over again. So? What is the point, really? We are just delaying the crystallization process for a while, but infinity is a longass time.


The whole point of a Buddha is that it can never be destroyed, because it is unconditioned, therefore unaffected by any phenomena. If what you said were true, then there would be no point at all in Buddhism - at least by its own standards of what matters.


That's what I thought until I read Namdrol's post and when I asked him if the Buddhas are destroyed, too, his response was not quite as definite as yours. He said something like "what does it matter?" which suggested to me that, even if that is the case, there's no point struggling against reality, it's still the best option out there. Sorry, I don't have the thread bookmarked.


I'm sure Namdrol doesn't believe in something like this. If your interpretation of what he is trying to say it true then you would be right and there would be no point to Buddhism at all. This would be more like some hobby to pass the time with. However, this idea is false according to the Lotus Sutra.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby muni » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:06 am

I have only clouds to sell. Looking deeply, there cannot be life-death. Completely labeless of course, (figurative) a cloud in the sky cannot die or go, can only turn in snow or rain in sky..... which is perfectly okay.

Not to be a label. To see so, fearlesness can be.

(To be totally sky, not merely a cloud, forgot who said that).
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:01 am

Namdrol, thanks for finding this thread and clarifying, but I did link directly to our earlier discussion a little later in the thread. You said it was one of the 14 questions and i commented how I was just resding about them in the Dalai Lama's "The Universe In A Single Atom." I guess I will go refresh my memory about these 14 questions now.
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:03 am

This deadly enemy; the self
attempting to justify its existence
posits life and death, ignorance and enlightenment
all manner of dualism.

Behind it all is fear:
fear of existence, fear of annihilation.
The Buddha roared like the fearless lion
scattering Mara and his hordes.

Will you choose to listen to the Lions roar
or the whimpering of the whipped dog?
hayagriva.jpg
hayagriva.jpg (54.46 KiB) Viewed 269 times

All of our sufferings derive from our habits
Of selfish delusions we heed and act out.
As all of us share in this tragic misfortune,
Which stems from our narrow and self-centered ways,
We must take all our sufferings and the miseries of others
And smother our wishes of selfish concern.
...
Depressed and forlorn, when we feel mental anguish,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have deeply disturbed minds of others;
Hereafter let’s take on this suffering ourselves.
...
Frantically running through life’s tangled jungle,
We are chased by sharp weapons of wrongs we have done
Returning upon us; we are out of control.
This sly, deadly villain – the selfishness in us,
Deceiving ourselves and all others as well
Capture him, capture him, fierce Yamantaka,
Summon this enemy, bring him forth now!

Batter him, batter him, rip out the heart
Of our grasping for ego, our love for ourselves!
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern!
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release!

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... apons.html
The Wheel of Sharp Weapons
(A Mahayana Mind-Training)
(Theg-pa chen-po'i blo-sbyong mtshon-cha 'khor-lo) by Dharmarakshita
translated by Alexander Berzin and Sharpa Tulku, together with Jonathan Landaw and Khamlung Tulku.
Based on an oral explanation by Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey, 1973

:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:02 pm

Eesh.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Malcolm » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Ryoto wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
That's what I thought until I read Namdrol's post and when I asked him if the Buddhas are destroyed, too, his response was not quite as definite as yours. He said something like "what does it matter?" which suggested to me that, even if that is the case, there's no point struggling against reality, it's still the best option out there. Sorry, I don't have the thread bookmarked.


That's funny, I thnk I read in another of Namdrol's posts that fully enlightened buddhas will not revert to samsara even after the destruction of the universe. Think about it, if buddhahood is not permanent, then a buddha's reality would be samsara, by definition. So there would be nothing other than sentient beings of the 6 realms. Therefore there would be no buddha. I tend to take this on faith, that buddhahood is possible and that it is permanent, because otherwise. . . it's just too depressing :cry:


So you're saying there is such a thing as not fully enlightened Buddhas? One is either a fully enlightened Buddha or not. There is no in between.

Is this some Dzogchen teaching?


Arhats, praytyekabuddhas, bodhisattvas are not fully enlighthened buddhas. And in Vajrayana, those buddhas on the 11th and 12th bhumis are considered not fully awakened.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:07 pm

padma norbu wrote:Eesh.
It's a response that one may anticipate regarding this type of analysis. Here in the West we generally say: the truth hurts!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: the matter of life and death

Postby padma norbu » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:12 am

whatever floats your boat...
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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