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Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry? - Dhamma Wheel

Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
starter
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Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby starter » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:32 pm

Hello, Teachers/Friends,

I just listened to an interesting Dhamma talk, in which seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth to liberation. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ...

Metta,

Starter
Last edited by starter on Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:12 pm


mlswe
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:56 pm

edit: should speak less practice more
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mlswe
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:19 pm

.
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:01 pm


mlswe
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:12 pm

.
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:18 pm


starter
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby starter » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:29 pm

Hi Friends, come on ... Let's stop "fighting" each other. My point was:

"... seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth [to liberation]. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding of the talk). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ..."

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Goofaholix
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:42 pm


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Ben
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:03 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

starter
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby starter » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:38 am

"... if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas".

-- I'm afraid not always. One can more easily see anatta in body than in mind ...

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Ben
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:47 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Alex123
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:24 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Ben
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:36 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

mlswe
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:08 am

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:47 am

.
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mlswe
Posts: 144
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:41 am

.
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mlswe
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:08 am

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:59 am

edit: i should speak less and practice more
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A_Martin
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby A_Martin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:24 am

see the supreme attainments, page 119 on the following link
http://www.luangta.com/English/site/boo ... _part3.pdf
You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry

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Ben
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:30 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

rowyourboat
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Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:34 am

Hopefully this should clarify the issue:


MN44 Culavedalla Sutta wrote:
`sakkāyo sakkāyo'ti, ayye, vuccati. katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā"ti?

pañca kho ime, āvuso visākha, upādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho, vedanupādānakkhandho, saññupādānakkhandho, saṅkhārupādānakkhandho, viññāṇupādānakkhandho

Personality, personality it is said, lady. What is described to be personality by the Blessed One?"

Five clinging aggregates are the personality described by the Blessed One: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate.'

So 'personality' (sakkaya) is the five clinging aggregates. It is one or few or all of these we consider to be the self. Self-view (sakkaya ditti) arises because due to lack of samadhi, we do not clearly see the aggregates. Hence we form various 'views'/conclusions/imagine various things about the aggregates, which are not true.

I have seen people able to get rid of a self view fairly easily when it comes to the body, but not so easily when it comes to the mind- hence the Buddha saying that even though the mind changes quicker, people still find it difficult to get rid of their self view of the mind. This is because the changing of consciousness is very difficult to see and the last refuge of the self view is often, consciousness. Observing only the body through vipassana is not guaranteed to get rid of self view, due to these reasons- having said that if a persons self view is only limited to the body and not to the mind (because the body is the most easily 'visible' aspect of the self) then a body contemplation like contemplating the four great 'primaries' (maha-bhutha) or doing an asubha (foulness of the body) or the body scan will/may be the required contemplation/meditation to get rid of that self view. This is not just me theorising - since I use a variety of methods to teach the dhamma, I see that different people need different methods from the satipatthana to get rid of their self-view.
Incidentally I dont have methods that I cling to and methods that I am averse to - I only care about what works.

With metta

Matheesha

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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