Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby tobes » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:41 pm

Sorry for the confusion Adamantine - I was speaking more generally about the thread.

But I think that there is an element of very subtle sectarian logic in your bus driver example, in the following sense: to the extent that we're speaking about non-dual realisations which are beyond conceptual distinctions, it seems entirely arbitrary to make assumptions one way or the other i.e. that those who do not have that realisation can somehow discern what different methods lead to. I think it is absurd in both directions - the idea that all paths lead to the same thing, or that different paths lead to different things. Surely the only true response is: we cannot see.

The former wants to preserve some universal truth that everything is one, the latter wants to preserve some particular truth that difference is meaningful and decisive. The latter is by definition sectarian - and that need not be seen as a pejorative term.

What you say about hermeneutics etc is right - perhaps it is better to have this conversation elsewhere.

I could start it with a proposition: The Buddha was indeed one of the great sectarians of all time.

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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby invisiblediamond » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:09 pm

Jax wrote:Interesting discussion... but I sense a kind of "cult mentality" at play. Many here actually believe the Dzogchen tantras have some primordial origin and history. I think scholarly research will indicate that Dzogchen has a rather short history, probably no older than the late 800's at earliest. It is probable that the Dzogchen teachings were created by some Tibetan lamas or practitioners that took the Mahayoga teachings which result in the state of Dzogchen as in the Guyagharba Tantra tradition. There seems to be no earlier instance of there being a separate vehicle called Dzogchen. Dzogchen was the culmination of the gradual path of generation and completion stage yogas. There exists no Indian or sanskrit texts regarding Dzogchen, none, unlike Mahamudra. I suspect that some Mahayoga practitioners, like Padmasambhava and his group or others created the notion of Dzogchen as being a separate vehicle, much as Saraha and Maitripa did regarding Essence Mahamudra. In other words, some Tibetan practitioners got together and wrote all the Dzogchen Tantras and gave them a false history to provide legitimacy. It is not to say the Tantras are not profound as many are, but later termas are probably just as spurious regarding origins. I do feel the Tantras of Dzogchen do represent the profound state of Mahamudra being present in its authors, but they called their new tradition "Dzogchen". These creators of Dzogchen were probably Vimalamitra and Vairochana. They combined many Central Asian traditions, Chan and Taoist practices, as well as Kashmiri Shaivist yogas. Togal practices can be traced to very ancient "Light Practices" also from Central Asian shamanism that spread as well into Iranian Sufism and Kashmiri Shaivism as shared in the Vijnana Bhairava Tantra. At that time there was a huge melting pot of religious and mystical teachings from the Middle East as well. Much of Padmasambhava's teachings have been heavily influenced by Christian and other Middle Eastern mythologies that Guenther has documented in his Teachings of Padmasambhava. In other words, Dzogchen was made up by some well meaning practitioners, all probably Tibetan from Mahayoga and other Tantric teachings, both Buddhist and Shaivist. Sam Van Schaik and David Germano and others have done some pretty thorough research in this area and have similar conclusions regarding Dzogchen coming from the Mahayoga tantras. Anyway, the point being, Gnosis has no historical basis. It is the ever present changeless Knowing within all experience. Whatever "points that out" to consciousness is that path. So don't get so hung up on imaginary histories and mythologies dependent upon the wishful and imaginary predilections of individuals subject to "cult-like" beliefs and exclusivity regarding the superiority of those beliefs. It becomes a self-reinforcing delusion. The truth is everywhere present, not in a system, lineage or teaching. It is our present Awareness that is fully healthy and untouched by samsaric conditioning from the beginning. Notice how your present Awareness is always changelessly aware, rest as that. The rest will unfold organically, siddhis and all...


Well Mahamudra is not a knowing. It's no attachment. Also from another post. There's no inter penetrating reality. The Buddha sees visions are reflections.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:09 pm

tobes wrote:The former wants to preserve some universal truth that everything is one, the latter wants to preserve some particular truth that difference is meaningful and decisive.


They are both sectarian.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Adamantine » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
tobes wrote:The former wants to preserve some universal truth that everything is one, the latter wants to preserve some particular truth that difference is meaningful and decisive.


They are both sectarian.


How so? :shrug:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby smcj » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:52 pm

A friend of mine had an interview with Lama Tharchin R. (Nyingma in Santa Cruz, CA., recently deceased) in preparation for a solo retreat. Having read a bunch of Longchenpa, R.'s advice to him about the non-dual state was, "It doesn't matter how you get there, but if you can get there stay there as long as you can."

My buddy is a little bit of wild card, so that advice is not necessarily what R. would have said to somebody else though.
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:59 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
tobes wrote:The former wants to preserve some universal truth that everything is one, the latter wants to preserve some particular truth that difference is meaningful and decisive.


They are both sectarian.


How so? :shrug:



They both present partial views about reality.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Bentinho Massaro - Is he there in a dzogchen sense?

Postby tobes » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:58 am

Malcolm wrote:
tobes wrote:The former wants to preserve some universal truth that everything is one, the latter wants to preserve some particular truth that difference is meaningful and decisive.


They are both sectarian.


I'll grant you that. In this respect the more universal orientation/aspiration is somewhat pernicious in that it attempts to deny or obscure that it is also, by necessity, particular.

In this terrain, silence is the way forward.

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