Demons

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Demons

Postby mint » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:29 pm

Can Mara or any demon directly or indirectly cause or influence a person to perform unskillful, unvirtuous deeds?

Do Mara and the demons have a recognizable conventional existence? or are Mara and the demons ourselves - our mind? Please elaborate, if you can.
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Re: Demons

Postby Caz » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:34 pm

mint wrote:Can Mara or any demon directly or indirectly cause or influence a person to perform unskillful, unvirtuous deeds?

Do Mara and the demons have a recognizable conventional existence? or are Mara and the demons ourselves - our mind? Please elaborate, if you can.


The only Demon people need to watch out for is that of the uncontrolled mind, The Devaputra Maras are the ones whom have conventional existence.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Demons

Postby Paul » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:11 pm

This book may well be of interest:

http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_176.html
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Demons

Postby Thug4lyfe » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:51 am

Hopefully I should be safe exterior nasties since I only recite the Buddha's name!
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Re: Demons

Postby catmoon » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:41 pm

What can a Mara do but tempt? And who created the Mara?
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Re: Demons

Postby Nosta » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:05 pm

From what i´ve found here and there, it seems that in Buddhism there is belief in 2 kinds of demons: inner ones and external demons. The first kind its you own actions, your mind doing wrong things, your mind hallucinating with reality etc; the external ones are real demons, beings with existence as you and me. I think that such demons inhabit other dimensions. Anyone can get a demon after this life, according to your karma and actions.

This is what i think that buddhism may say, but the best thing is really read the sutras and learn for yourself. A simple guy like me, with no studys on Buddhism cant know anything! And this is a problem on every topic/post on any buddhist forum: unfortunatly there are not experts (ie, real monks) enough, able to answer to every question. :)
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Re: Demons

Postby Thug4lyfe » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:23 pm

I don't think da exterior demons will bother da noobs!
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Re: Demons

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:56 pm

Wow the kooks are out in force today. But alas, there are demons. You defeat them with dualistic and nondualistic methods.
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Re: Demons

Postby Knotty Veneer » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:07 pm

As long as there is ego, there are demons
When there is no more ego,
There are no more demons either.

Machik Lapdron
You cannot polish a turd - however a pleasing effect can be attained by rolling one in glitter.
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Re: Demons

Postby deepbluehum » Tue May 01, 2012 1:18 am

That's true. Not so easy. Until you attain buddhahood there will be plenty of demons. Don't fool yourself into thinking you've got 'em licked just yet. If you think you have, it's a demon.
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Re: Demons

Postby Will » Tue May 01, 2012 1:24 am

The Shurangama Sutra, chapter 8 goes into the skandha demons. Bodhisattva Hsuan Hua comments:

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/S ... screen.pdf

Also available in book form from BTTS: http://www.bttsonline.org/english-sutra ... on-states/
Revealing one essence: this means the inherently pure, complete, luminous essence, which is pure of its own nature. -- Fa-tsang
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Re: Demons

Postby Nemo » Tue May 01, 2012 10:09 am

Padmasambhava predicted that by this time over half the population of earth would be so badly afflicted by external demons they would not be able to practice the Dharma.
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Re: Demons

Postby catmoon » Tue May 01, 2012 12:01 pm

A very famous lama once tried to cast demons out of a malfunctioning floor polishing machine at an airport.
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Re: Demons

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 01, 2012 12:11 pm

Did it fix the machine?

Humorous anecdote in the same vein: one time we were driving to a retreat with a vajra sister and as we were driving along the car started to make all sorts of weird sounds, someimes the brakes would work sometimes not, someimes the power steering would work other times it wouldn't (obviously a hydraulic system problem). Anyway, to counter the problems with the car tmy vajra sister (not being sus to car mechanics) kept chanting the green Tara mantra. The car got us there but completely died at the begining of the 2km dirt track leading to the retreat centre.

I leaned over to my vajra sister and asked her: "Does this car take super or unleaded fuel?"
To which she replies: "Super."
"You see, that's the problem," I answered, "all this time you were chanting the green Tara mantra when in fact you should have been chanting the red Tara mantra, that's why the car died on us*."

You can guess her response.

*in Greece the petrol pump handles on super pumps are red and on the unleaded pumps are green.
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Re: Demons

Postby ronnewmexico » Sat May 05, 2012 4:50 am

Pie

Demons...".he Mara know everything we know, but not Empty Essence, because they do not care for practice.
That is why they hate practitioners."....

they hate the idea that they are not permanent or permanent in their state. The dharma or really any conception of changeability is what they are adverse to.
Practitioners of that sort are thusly inherently :smile: their enemy. It is not that they hate us individually but that they hate anything that approximates or represents their eventual demise....so adverse are they to it they cannot abide even the mention of it.

So they create or shape things to their beliefs. Constructing ideas such as permanent life eternal souls praying to them in some select forms as things that are never changing or may not be changed, all in the end reinforcing through subtle and overt means their eternity.
This is why they demand followers or people to pray to them...it recreates(in their minds) their eternal aspect.

Ah if only it were so simple they would live forever and then perhaps leave us be.
They are of varying sorts and description and now some believe are so integrated into our psyche they are virtually unrecognizable from us human.
But it is not so...all here it seems is expanding apart. Eventually the tether they hold to this thing of form will devolve blasting apart resulting in their demise.
Eternal they may be from perceived internal source, sickness such things but external...they will devolve as we all do being of separateness. They tether to form. When no form presents they devolve.

Spells and such they work through unconscious identifiers. So to not be subject to such things a quick instant remedy is to notice consciously their presence. The presence of spells.ONce found they cease their purpose through unconscious mover and cease effect.
So it is enough to simply see them.
Once seen they are but energy. Such may be used for spiritual purpose. Entering into one consciously and one may seeing them as spells seeing them also as energy sent to one, then utilize that energy. It makes things most magical an colorful. I did this long ago on trails where spell were cast, taking such upon myself as better me than some innocent, destroying, stamping them, laughing at them, and worse to bring their cause upon me...cause it became for great magic and strange things of wonder and delight.
Energy only it is...freely given. Mistaken arrow it can be ridden, and aimed then with compassionate intent.

Negative action of demons can also be then endeavored for this purpose, if like myself ones defilements are so worn and rusty they provide not much in the way of energy anymore, they may be incited to provide a externally perceived source of energy for spiritual purpose. One must of course before endeavoring this care not a fig if one lives or dies or is in a heaven or a hell. But free energy they provide, if so incited.

Your other stuff.....don't know what to say pie. Demons may show things to humans in dreams and visions but what they say or tell may not be for our benefit or be real but to their purpose. So I personally keep my eye on the wheel care not for what they may say. Compassion it wells from our awareness itself cannot be stamped or smothered so thusly if we know reality we know compassion. So if we know not compassion or have it lessened we know not the real...this is how things are, and the only test of the spiritual. We are essentially knowing only. Hence we are compassionate only. All is but a diffusion of that basic reality. A secret I suspect certain demons want you to not know as well...it threatens again their separate identity. What we know cannot be other than us nor can what we know be what we harm. Only us we cannot harm ourselves in such a fashion, completely impossible it is, to harm what is truly known. Only that which we do not know and consider different can we consider for harm. Distinction exists as knowing thing through such means does classify and thusly know but not in this fashion. Only ignorance may form noncompassion...a secret closely held by demon, they know it not perhaps but suspect it so.

Really these things of demons and all other things or things they may envision or believe in...what matter, we must become enlightened that is all.
Human life so rare...maggots in rice are rare as well. WE are here and must utilize it to its furthest extend concerning ourselves with demons other than as spiritual tools for spiritual advancement as described...it is quite pointless. They in the main cannot be helped by us as human. Nor can we as human help human...in the main they will not listen nor can it be said this thing.

If you have the time sing them dharma songs of emptiness versed. They may not like it much but it may help rather than harm that they hear it.
That is all we may do for them the demons. So sad is their plight.

That is the opinion of this unknowing layperson of no spiritual attainment whatsoever. So feel free to disregard. If you find or suspect it true follow it closely.
If not leave it alone it is not for you. This is my world and I can not say certainly it is yours as well. This is how things are here. I don't know if you live here...perhaps perhaps not.
If so this is the rough geography for you. That other stuff.....not here not a bit.

As a aside...as I am now here.
Demons perhaps sensing this.
I am here not there.
Send your curse your spell to me. YOur dream your incantation, foist it upon me.
Human they are so innocent, despicable but innocent and easily harmed.
Me instead, now not later. Better me than them.
We will see if what I say and what I know to be real is real or if what you say and what you know is real.

Come here if you will..... this is the one who says.....you do not exist. None other.... it is me. A echo heard...it is but me.
Me and only me.....this is the source what you suspect spreading this thing....here before you to be harmed and not to harm you.. not a bit....easy I am so weak ....I await you.
Not your minions your followers your group nor your clan... to you I invite this thing..... if curse you desire to spread, spread to me.
I am weak and easily overcome. No harm will come to you, i have not a smidgen of power not a whit.
End me it is ended you may live forever. Act not and I will spread.
Pain ah yes I know...those I love certainly most.
Come demon I exempt none......they know not my song nor ended may it be by such a thing.
I will continue to me one must come, no other. it will not suffice.
Me not other demon....you are invited to favor this harm to me none to other.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Demons

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 05, 2012 5:45 am

Nemo wrote:Padmasambhava predicted that by this time over half the population of earth would be so badly afflicted by external demons they would not be able to practice the Dharma.


Sounds about right.

Look at the murderous rampage of communists in the last century who actively and intentionally attempted to eradicate Buddhism in Asia. Many of the men in those ranks were presumably at one point Buddhist or even having been monks themselves.

Now if it isn't ideology that drives people to destroy Buddhadharma, it is apathy which turns them away from it.
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Re: Demons

Postby ronnewmexico » Sat May 05, 2012 5:50 am

Or perhaps look at the rape of Nanking.... in which soldiers finding a woman to young to impregnate would instead disembowel them and then put their private parts into the still warm gushing cavity of organ and find yes....sexual pleasure.

Perhaps we could look at all sorts of things and places and peoples.
Would we then finding such things and finding us not doing such things....then call ourselves holy?....I suspect we would we certainly would.

And the prince who ruled that rape...retired to a life of leisure, lived to 93 I think it was. Respected and revered he if I remember correctly helped to design golf courses as that was his finest passion golf.....

And his founder.....the president of the US attended his funeral....mighty great man he was all the leaders did so as well.
Holy yes we all are.
Not knowing demons nor myself really well at all. I know firmly finally and completely there is a right and wrong to things. I suspect greatly but do not know, demon be it always the one who points the finger at other when deed well done of hatred wrought knowing perhaps not but suspecting greatly....the finger points not out but in.....and from this thing we must escape at all and any cost this thing human wrought demon desired....it be not us but him or her or it..but us it always is and no other.

To this we must escape and none other. It is I that do this thing and no other...not this or that or there or here....it is as it is... true and not false a bit.
I no other. Do this thing.
Come demon I await you have your way with me...I am easy. Till I see my real enemy.... you will continue. But when my real enemy is known....there is no hope for your hope, only the real it will have to suffice in this reality of what is known.

Come demon I again implore you...it is me and no other.
That says this thing you may not abide.
One act from you and I devolve....no act and I spread like blood from a gushing wound.
Till all around are bloodied . And trace of such be found in all places.
I await you and prepare the finest of offering for your arrival.
Real this thing be and no temple offering...I know no such things.
They are innocent and really do this thing do I....come demon you know now its real.
The crack it is deepening....acting you must be, soon transparent you may be.
All will be rendered asunder. all of construct suchly formed.....now you must act.
I am here.

I will not go away simply because you want me to......
Do you remember those words....a echo but they be...returning now to you, from where they be fashioned, individually wrought and formed finely hewn from timber strong and forest deep. Though little forest only known.
I remain here.....saying these things, these very very bad things.
You should make them stop.
That is my advice.
Not asked for or requested in any fashion....one act from you and it stops .
So act I am here.
I will not go away simply because you want me to......
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Demons

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 05, 2012 7:22 am

There is a Padmasambhava prophecy concerning the Boudhanath Stupa in Kathmandu which predicts the unbinding of demonic forces.

"The great monasteries of the country become deserted and the belch of the Bon Priest resounds in quiet hermitages; the wise and simple leaders of the monasteries have been poisoned so that the lineal explanations and practices are fragmented or lost; the holders of the lineal traditions meet sudden death. Impostors and frauds cheat the people and black spectres haunt the land. The knot in the silken thread binding demonic forces in divine bondage is untied and the cord of faith keeping the human mind harmonious is severed. The king's law is broken and the strength of communal unity lost; the people's traditions are rejected and the sea of contentment dries up; personal morality is forgotten and the cloak of modesty thrown away. Virtue is impotent and humiliated and led by coarse, immodest and fearful rulers. Abbots, teachers and professors become army officers, while the ignorant guide religious aspirants, explain the doctrine and give initiation."


http://www.khandro.net/stupa_Boudhnath_KD.htm

As time goes on the idea is that the human condition will degenerate and there will be increasing afflictions coupled with the unbinding of demonic forces.

Curiously, most cultures, in their pre-industrial state at least, have some form of spirit veneration and appropriate offerings are made to them. From Shinto in Japan with Kami to the idea of faeries in England, most cultures have or at least had an idea of placating local gods or spirits with offerings to ensure their cooperation and good behaviour.

Now that such culture has largely been lost and is looked down upon as superstitious and something to be ridiculed there are no means to ensure neighbourly relations with the local unseen forces of the land.
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Re: Demons

Postby Will » Sat May 05, 2012 3:36 pm

The Shurangama Sutra, at the beginning of chapter 8 makes clear that demons are both from within us and external:

"You are still not aware of the subtle demonic events that can occur when you cultivate shamatha and vipashyana. If you cannot recognize a demonic state when it appears, it is because the cleansing of your mind has not been proper. You will then be engulfed by deviant views. 8:2

”You may be troubled by a demon from your own skandhas or a demon from the heavens. Or you may be possessed by a ghost or spirit, or you may encounter a li ghost or a mei ghost. If your mind is not clear, you will mistake a thief for your own son. 8:3
Revealing one essence: this means the inherently pure, complete, luminous essence, which is pure of its own nature. -- Fa-tsang
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Re: Demons

Postby ronnewmexico » Sat May 05, 2012 7:19 pm

Well yes it seems true.....we make what is perceived internal in us and to us.... external. Is not this as our present reality is shaped and formed.

So it seems they are internal and external...no matter really the remedy is the same....use them for spiritual purpose if you may if not ...not.

Appease them for purpose of the conventional....that would reinforce their state in their minds and lead them away from dharma...regardless of such benefit...I could not do so... it would enforce and enable their existence a rather pointless in the end painful one. I could never want a thing so badly I could hurt them...they need to be awakened not appeased.
If only we could do so.

Rather I sing them dharma songs of emptiness....so they may see their finiteness and subject ability to change.
Maybe they just hear some noise and a poorly sung thing...but it is all we may do to help as I see it...them.
Not much more it is hopeless.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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