How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby LastLegend » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:11 am

The fundamental teaching of Buddhism is nothing but
The Doctrine of One Mind.
This Mind is originally perfect and vastly illuminating.
It is clear and pure, containing nothing, not even a fine dust.
There is neither delusion nor enlightenment,
Neither birth nor death,
Neither saints nor sinners.
Sentient beings and Buddhas are of the same fundamental nature.
There are no two natures to distinguish them.
This is why Bodhidharma came from the west to teach
"Direct Pointing" to the original true Mind.

- Han Shan Te'-Ch'ing, 1600
Kung-an

Look upon the body as unreal,
an image in a mirror,
the reflection of the moon in water.
Contemplate the mind as formless,
yet bright and pure.

Not a single thought arising,
empty, yet perceptive;
still, yet illuminating;
complete like the great emptiness,
containing all that is wonderful.

- Han Shan Te'-Ch'ing, 1600

Hanshan came specially to see me,
Shihte too, a rare visitor.
We spoke unaffectedly and with without reserve
of the Mind,
How vast and free the Great Emptinesss,
How boundless the universe,
Each thing containing within itself all things.

- Feng Kan (Big Stick), 750
Translated by R. H. Blyth
Zen and Zen Classics, p 131

Gone, and a million things leave no trace
Loosed, and it flows through the galaxies
A fountain of light, into the very mind--
Not a thing, and yet it appears before me:
Now I know the pearl of the Buddha-nature
Know its use: a boundless perfect sphere.

- Han-Shan, 750
The Enlightened Heart
Translated by Stephen Mitchell

The Buddha Mind contains the universe.
In this universe there is only one pure substance,
One absolute and indivisible Truth.
The notion of duality does not exist.
The small mind contains only illusions of separateness, of division.
It imagines myriad objects and defines truth in terms of relative opposites.
Big is defined by small, good by evil, pure by defiled, hidden by revealed, full by empty.
What is opposition?
It is the arena of hostility, of conflict and turmoil.
Where duality is transcended peace reigns.
This is the Dharma’s ultimate truth.

- Maxims of Master Han Shan Te'Ch'ing, # 76, 1600
Journey to Dreamland
Translated by Grandmaster Jy Din Shakya
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Jnana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:15 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Only a fool would believe that cutting a block of cheese into three pieces gives three different types of cheese.

Indeed. Or that three different descriptions of the sky refer to three different skies.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:16 am

AlexanderS wrote:Also would you say that Dzogchen is superior to Mahamudra?
Now that's a silly question to ask a Dzogchenpa!
Some more food for thought:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9844773/Saraha% ... 20Song.pdf
Sarahas Vajra Song - Unborn Treasury of Mind.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Sönam » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:32 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Only a fool would believe that cutting a block of cheese into three pieces gives three different types of cheese.
:namaste:


... but there is different types of fools ... some will eat only the heart, some all but the rind, and others as it is, with the rind ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:38 am

Sönam wrote:... but there is different types of fools ... some will eat only the heart, some all but the rind, and others as it is, with the rind ...
:twothumbsup: Let them eat cheese is what I say! Let them eat it just as they wish!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Jnana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:53 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:Also would you say that Dzogchen is superior to Mahamudra?

Now that's a silly question to ask a Dzogchenpa!

Here's what some dzogchenpas have to say on this issue: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:31 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Namdrol can you point me to a thread or info, that explains the differences betweeen Dzogchen and Mahamudra? Also would you say that Dzogchen is superior to Mahamudra?


The state of Dzogchen and the state of Mahāmudra are not two different states. They are the same thing.

The path of Dzogchen and the path of Mahāmudra are completely different.

The superior path is whichever one you will actually practice.

My initial point, which prompted this flood of comments, was to disabuse someone of the notion that the meditation of mahāmudra, dzogchen and Soto Zen are more or less the same. This assertion could not be more mistaken.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:37 pm

One of the Sangha asked the Master, "Who got the principle of Huang Mei?"
The Master replied, "The one who understands the Buddhadharma."
The Sangha member said, "High Master, have you obtained it?"
"I do not understand the Buddhadharma," the Master replied.

(Platform Sutra, ch. 7; T48n2008_p0358a09-12)

Still, we find lot of explanations on who understands the teaching better. But when will there be an understanding of not understanding? How can there be a disagreement about not understanding? Is there a deeper way of not understanding?

Vaibhasikas and Sautrantikas,
Yogacarins and Madhyamikas, etc.
Criticize each other and argue;
Ignorant of suchness, the space-like equality of appearance and emptiness,
They turn their backs on the innate.

(Saraha, Unborn Treasury of Mind Adamantine Song)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:39 pm

Namdrol wrote:My initial point, which prompted this flood of comments, was to disabuse someone of the notion that the meditation of mahāmudra, dzogchen and Soto Zen are more or less the same. This assertion could not be more mistaken.


Fortunately they are not the same! Even in a single tradition there are many methods, so much more in three. Buddhism would be quite boring and useless without its diversity.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:28 pm

Namdrol wrote:My initial point, which prompted this flood of comments, was to disabuse someone of the notion that the meditation of mahāmudra, dzogchen and Soto Zen are more or less the same. This assertion could not be more mistaken.
So, to clarify the situation for me, what you are saying is that the methods differ but not the outcomes? Am I understanding you correctly?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:06 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:My initial point, which prompted this flood of comments, was to disabuse someone of the notion that the meditation of mahāmudra, dzogchen and Soto Zen are more or less the same. This assertion could not be more mistaken.
So, to clarify the situation for me, what you are saying is that the methods differ but not the outcomes? Am I understanding you correctly?
:namaste:


It is a question of directness. Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are more direct, Soto less, but in the end, all Buddhist paths lead to complete liberation.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby DarwidHalim » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:29 am

Namdrol
"It is a question of directness. Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are more direct, Soto less, but in the end, all Buddhist paths lead to complete liberation."


Since you can say Soto is less direct than Mahamudra, I believe you must know exactly and precisely what is Shikantaza meditation, which is the backbone of meditation in Soto Zen.

Please explain to us here how to do Shikantaza, so all of us can know here that your opinion is based on accurate information instead of personal opinion, which only say but never know what is Shikantaza.

It is fair isn't it? If we want to say something we must Know what we are talking in great detail. Please then elaborate.

Otherwise, we are simply talking non sense.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Norwegian » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:01 am

[...] If we want to say something we must Know what we are talking in great detail. Please then elaborate.

Otherwise, we are simply talking non sense.


says the guy who managed to write the following: "Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and Shikantaza are just same method of meditation."

You're funny.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:18 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:My initial point, which prompted this flood of comments, was to disabuse someone of the notion that the meditation of mahāmudra, dzogchen and Soto Zen are more or less the same. This assertion could not be more mistaken.
So, to clarify the situation for me, what you are saying is that the methods differ but not the outcomes? Am I understanding you correctly?
:namaste:



All Buddhist paths lead to buddhahood, some sooner, some later.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:20 am

DarwidHalim wrote:
It is fair isn't it? If we want to say something we must Know what we are talking in great detail. Please then elaborate.



As our Norwegian friend said, apply the same standard to yourself, then we can talk. For starters, please tell us who gave you instruction in Dzogchen and Mahāmudra.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby DarwidHalim » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:00 am

There is no dispute in the view of mahamudra. So, we are not discussing mahamudra here. My view about Mahamudra has no conflict with all proponents of Mahamudra here.

The dispute is in your statement about Zazen.

Since you can say Zazen is less direct than Mahamudra, you have must a solid base to say it out. We want to know your this solid base about Zazen.

1. Is your understanding about Zazen is the actual zazen or not?
2. Or you just say something about zazen, but actually you never know what is Zazen, what is shikantaza.

If we never know what is something in great detail, it is better we don't say it out. I believe you know this thing.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:05 am

DarwidHalim wrote:There is no dispute in the view of mahamudra. So, we are not discussing mahamudra here. My view about Mahamudra has no conflict with all proponents of Mahamudra here.


Your view of mahāmudra is in conflict with mine.

Since you can say Zazen is less direct than Mahamudra, you have must a solid base to say it out. We want to know your this solid base about Zazen.


Since you obviously think Zazen is the same as Mahāmudra, "you have must a solid base to say it out. We want to know your this solid base about" mahāmudra.

N

PS, everyone can see by now this conversation is fruitless.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby DarwidHalim » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:12 am

In this case, we are simply back to the square.

Ok then, let it be.

:cheers:
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:35 am

DarwidHalim wrote:In this case, we are simply back to the square.

Ok then, let it be.

:cheers:



Ball is in your course, since the initial assertion was yours.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10154
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Zenshin 善心 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:38 am

well, i think Nembutsu is identical to Dzogchen and Nichiren-shu is Theravadin in all but name, so there! :tongue: :stirthepot:
All beings since their first aspiration till the attainment of Buddhahood are sheltered under the guardianship of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who, responding to the requirements of the occasion, transform themselves and assume the actual forms of personality.

Thus for the sake of all beings Buddhas and Bodhisattvas become sometimes their parents, sometimes their wives and children, sometimes their kinsmen, sometimes their servants, sometimes their friends, sometimes their enemies, sometimes reveal themselves as devas or in some other forms.


- Ashvaghosa, The Awakening of Faith

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