How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

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Re: Reincarnation, Zen, etc.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:55 pm

Beatzen wrote:
kirtu wrote:The perceived world is functional and is more or less really composed of atoms, etc. (essentially the Vaibhasika view but Zen is also heavily influenced by Mind Only teaching).


How does this relate to the Taoist concept of fluidity and movement? I have only been earnestly studying for two years now, and I suppose if one were to pose the model of modern physics, Zen conceives the world more as waves then particles.

I can't really respond to Namdol's question of which form of Samadhi I was talking about, since I don't completely comprehend what is meant by "tantric." Remember, I'm not familiar with that branch of Buddhist terminology. I will explain, however, that I am under the impression that we are discussing a similar experience of yogic, or non-dual awareness and eventually, certainty (perhaps ultimately, a clear comprehension of relative and absolute truth simultaneously) that arises from meditation on emptiness in whatever i mean by "samadhi"



What do you mean by nondual? From which point of view, Buddhist or Hindu; if Buddhist, Yogacara or Madhyamaka?
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:02 pm

I mean a state which is tranquil, space-like. I would almost say a fusion of subject and object, but I know from experience and from my own study that the Buddhist view on this state leaves the wiggle room for a capacity to investigate the nature of the self which experiences the state that I describe. I don't know which school characterizes what I mean.

[edit] I'd like to know, as a student, why tantric methods are any more expedient than the method I am describing.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:08 pm

Beatzen wrote:I mean a state which is tranquil, space-like. I would almost say a fusion of subject and object, but I know from experience and from my own study that the Buddhist view on this state leaves the wiggle room for a capacity to investigate the nature of the self which experiences the state that I describe. I don't know which school characterizes what I mean.

[edit] I'd like to know, as a student, why tantric methods are any more expedient than the method I am describing.


Vajrayāna methods are more expedient than sutra based methods because of the profound understanding of the relationship between the body and the mind present in Vajrayāna, and the employment of that understanding in practice.

Dzogchen is more profound still.

N
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:09 pm

Tashi delek,

Dear Beatzen, is there inside your Zen sect, maybe spoken of Sutras belonging to Buddha Shakyamuni?

I thought that the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra would be used in Zen Buddhism and here does the silence of Vimalakirti (not answering questions) equate the silence in Zen meditation.

Maybe is there another Buddhist Sutra inside your Zen White Plum Asanga ?


But yes there is difference between Zen and Zen of course and maybe is your way of practising Zen not at all based, or partial based on Buddhism. That could declare your level of understanding Buddha Dharma?


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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:16 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek,

Dear Beatzen, is there inside your Zen sect, maybe spoken of Sutras belonging to Buddha Shakyamuni?

I thought that the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra would be used in Zen Buddhism and here does the silence of Vimalakirti (not answering questions) equate the silence in Zen meditation.

Maybe is there another Buddhist Sutra inside your Zen White Plum Asanga ?


But yes there is difference between Zen and Zen of course and maybe is your way of practising Zen not at all based, or partial based on Buddhism. That could declare your level of understanding Buddha Dharma?


Mutsog Marro
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I was very interested in the Vimalakirti sutra until I came across Pruning the Bodhi tree, which is based on the arguments of Matsumoto Shiro and other dissenting Soto masters

How did this evolve into a conversation about my Zen practice and the merits of it?
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:17 pm

Beatzen wrote:
I was very interested in the Vimalakirti sutra until I came across Pruning the Bodhi tree, which is based on the arguments of Matsumoto Shiro and other dissenting Soto masters


And what does it say there?
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:
I was very interested in the Vimalakirti sutra until I came across Pruning the Bodhi tree, which is based on the arguments of Matsumoto Shiro and other dissenting Soto masters


And what does it say there?


That the Vimalakirti sutra is heretical and is one of the contributing factors in the degradation of Zen Buddhism. Along with infiltration of certain Shinto influences.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby tomamundsen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:55 pm

Beatzen wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:
I was very interested in the Vimalakirti sutra until I came across Pruning the Bodhi tree, which is based on the arguments of Matsumoto Shiro and other dissenting Soto masters


And what does it say there?


That the Vimalakirti sutra is heretical and is one of the contributing factors in the degradation of Zen Buddhism. Along with infiltration of certain Shinto influences.

The Vimalakīrti Nirdeśa Sūtra was composed in India.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:57 pm

Beatzen wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:
I was very interested in the Vimalakirti sutra until I came across Pruning the Bodhi tree, which is based on the arguments of Matsumoto Shiro and other dissenting Soto masters


And what does it say there?


That the Vimalakirti sutra is heretical and is one of the contributing factors in the degradation of Zen Buddhism. Along with infiltration of certain Shinto influences.



How can a sutra be heretical?
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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:01 pm

Beatzen wrote:
That the Vimalakirti sutra is heretical and is one of the contributing factors in the degradation of Zen Buddhism. Along with infiltration of certain Shinto influences.



Tashi delek,

Is there a good / certain reason, for the statement of Matsumoto Shiro and other dissenting Soto masters regarding their above mentioned statement ?

Then please explain that. :)


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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Sönam » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:41 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Beatzen wrote:
That the Vimalakirti sutra is heretical and is one of the contributing factors in the degradation of Zen Buddhism. Along with infiltration of certain Shinto influences.



How can a sutra be heretical?


When it is declared so by heretics ... only heretics declare heresy.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:45 pm

I don't know. The academic discussion turned me off from looking into the sutra's meaning. I prefer the Heart Sutra. It's more familiar to me.

Sonam, are you calling all Zen Buddhists heretics, or just Matsumoto Shiro?
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:50 pm

So another thing to add in the presentation that I gave is that Zen as a sutric system gathers causes that result in enlightenment.

Tibetan Buddhism in my presentation is different (although it also is a cause and condition based system) in that it takes the result (Buddhahood) as the path itself. In short the negative emotions are transformed into wisdom.

As Namdrol noted my presentation doesn't cover Dzogchen. The main thing is that wisdom, Buddhahood, is already present in the mindstream of all sentient beings and is directly realizable.

You might take a look at Namkhai Norbu's "Zen and Dzogchen" but I haven't read that in a while and when I was a Zen student I didn't really understand the points he was making.

Kirt
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:54 pm

Beatzen wrote:That the Vimalakirti sutra is heretical and is one of the contributing factors in the degradation of Zen Buddhism. Along with infiltration of certain Shinto influences.


Philosophy is not realization. Critical Buddhism can be too critical.

You can definitely attain realization through Zen Buddhist practice though.

Kirt
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“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Will » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:56 pm

My Master, Ven. Hsuan Hua was a Ch'an adept and taught rebirth & sutra study in the traditional manner.

This rebirth denial is fairly new; it seems mainly focused in and by Western Zennists whose fondness for innovation trumps several key notions in the buddhadharma.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:00 pm

Beatzen wrote:I don't know. The academic discussion turned me off from looking into the sutra's meaning. I prefer the Heart Sutra. It's more familiar to me.


The Heart Sutra is the distillation of the Prajnaparamita. It can definitely awaken the Buddha Mind.

Daido Roshi was once asked how one knows when they were progressing in realization. Daido said when the sutras and esp. the Heart Sutra begins to get clearer and starts to make sense.

Kirt
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“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Beatzen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:10 pm

kirtu wrote:
Beatzen wrote:I don't know. The academic discussion turned me off from looking into the sutra's meaning. I prefer the Heart Sutra. It's more familiar to me.


The Heart Sutra is the distillation of the Prajnaparamita. It can definitely awaken the Buddha Mind.

Daido Roshi was once asked how one knows when they were progressing in realization. Daido said when the sutras and esp. the Heart Sutra begins to get clearer and starts to make sense.

Kirt


Then I must be progressing because it's become my favorite. I think it's probably the most straight-forward and profound sutra I've ever come across.

I'd love to get into Dogen, but I'm only half way through this great Alan Watts book right now.
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kirtu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:13 pm

Beatzen wrote:Then I must be progressing because it's become my favorite. I think it's probably the most straight-forward and profound sutra I've ever come across.


:twothumbsup:

I'd love to get into Dogen, but I'm only half way through this great Alan Watts book right now.


Which one? Do you mind if I ask why you like Watts?

Kirt
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“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby Mr. G » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:16 pm

Beatzen wrote:I'd love to get into Dogen, but I'm only half way through this great Alan Watts book right now.


Why not drop Watts and dive into the Shobogenzo with a commentary?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: How is Dzogchen/Mahamudra different from Zazen Samadhi

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:17 pm

kirtu wrote:
Beatzen wrote:That the Vimalakirti sutra is heretical and is one of the contributing factors in the degradation of Zen Buddhism. Along with infiltration of certain Shinto influences.


Philosophy is not realization. Critical Buddhism can be too critical.
Thought that philosophy would have the meaning of, looking or proving the reason why and in that way it is realizing something which can be worked out further on. So we have investigation done by karma mind and realisation about that by non- karma mind. Most of us need the forerunner like study (philosophy like Mind only, Madyamika etc.) to get fixed in the saddle .

Buddhism never can be too critical regarding investigations about the reason why. It' s nice to have a talk with the Brahman along the Ganga in India and especially in the place Benares.

You can definitely attain realization through Zen Buddhist practice though.
Yes everybody could attain enlightenment and i am interested in the way / path of enlightenment how it is explained in the White Plum Asanga. Maybe our Beatzen can make a hint in that direction ..... ;)

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