Branding and Buddhist Institutions

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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:12 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:This statement:
kirtu wrote:...but in general they form a pre-mid-level agricultural level of human organization (this may not exactly be true though: in North America there were extensive trade networks east of the Mississippi and there were various confederations such as the Delaware and the Iroquois). I don't know about the structure, if any, of the Aboriginal people's in Australia or their related people's on the Indian subcontinent and Andaman Islands.
And this one:
But societies that come about from social evolution after a point form markets.
Reek of linear historical determinism. I thought that, sociologically and anthropologically, we had broken with this form of Eurocentric social/historical/economic developmental models. It seems I am wrong.


Without evidence you cannot support statements. And in fact you can make any kind of statement you like irrespective of whether it has any validity of not (see propaganda and Dr. Goebbels for example or actually most of the political statements made at that period and throughout the 20th century).

Frankly Greg, you as I remember are a native English speaker - Greek-Austrailian? Isn't that correct? And native English speakers are frequently unreliable because they tend to make assertions without any factual basis.

Secondly, if you have something valuable to say but then can't provide evidence then what you have to say gets lost and ignored.

Third, I'm not a liberal arts weenie so:
Reek of linear historical determinism. I thought that, sociologically and anthropologically, we had broken with this form of Eurocentric social/historical/economic developmental models. It seems I am wrong.


this is off base. But this is the kind of stuff that I actually expect from native English speakers (meaning people that essentially grew up speaking English at home).

Of course after native English speakers we have other people who decided to jettison logic at various times as well - basically the whole human race at various times.

You can project your issues or you can support your possibly interesting argument.

KIrt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Jikan wrote:but merely that the intensity and the particular qualities by which this sort of thing goes on now is conditioned by commodity-logic. By consumerism, in you like that language better.




Nothing has changed. Commodity logic has always driven human activities, all of them.
[/quote]

How would you define commodity logic? Just reacting by liking something or being attached to it for some reason isn't a form of logic although we can propose rules and advance explanations for this behavior (already done in psychology and economics).

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:23 pm

kirtu wrote:Without evidence you cannot support statements. And in fact you can make any kind of statement you like irrespective of whether it has any validity of not (see propaganda and Dr. Goebbels for example or actually most of the political statements made at that period and throughout the 20th century).
Well, seeing as I am not Goebbels and do not have the entire Nazi German State (war machine) to back me AND I furnished ample evidence to back my statements, I guess that means that you concede?
Of course after native English speakers we have other people who decided to jettison logic at various times as well - basically the whole human race at various times.
So anything that is not historical determinism is illogical? I would say that taking a regional model of social/economic development and applying (forcing) it across the board by utilising military based colonisation (after obliterating ones own bioregion) and social colonisation (by referring to others as undeveloped), is slightly more illogical. Just a little bit less logical. A teeny bit. What do you reckon?
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:26 pm

Jikan wrote: Go to the self-help section of any bookstore and be prepared to lose count of the references to "mindfulness."


People who stock bookshelves generally don't know what they are doing and just put books out that they think will sell and put them in a specific section for that purpose.

"Zen" is a design quality for dealers in home decor.


:| People are superficial and want to make positive or cool associations.

Some Buddhist institutions are fragmenting into specific brands oriented around particular charismatic teachers, with less emphasis on particular schools or traditions from which they emerged historically.


Well this may have nothing to do with brand anything. It could just be that some people feel they get more benefit from teacher X than teacher Y. And they may have stronger karmic connections with one than another.

May we all grow up and give up on our trips.


What do you mean by that?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:48 pm

kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Jikan wrote:but merely that the intensity and the particular qualities by which this sort of thing goes on now is conditioned by commodity-logic. By consumerism, in you like that language better.




Nothing has changed. Commodity logic has always driven human activities, all of them.


How would you define commodity logic? Just reacting by liking something or being attached to it for some reason isn't a form of logic although we can propose rules and advance explanations for this behavior (already done in psychology and economics).

Kirt[/quote]


Supply and demand...
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:04 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:How would you define commodity logic? Just reacting by liking something or being attached to it for some reason isn't a form of logic although we can propose rules and advance explanations for this behavior (already done in psychology and economics).



Supply and demand...


But supply and demand function outside of some complexity about a item for sale or trade. This has nothing whatsoever to do with branding.

If I frequent a market and tomato seller X has the lowest prices and the freshest tomatos then I buy from them one week. If next week tomato seller Y has the tomatos according to my criteria then I buy from them. The tomato sellers are trying to sell their tomatos to me in response to a perceived demand by me and others. In no way has branding taken place.

The case of branding would be if I am habitually attached to a particular seller for some reason.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:10 pm

kirtu wrote:
But supply and demand function outside of some complexity about a item for sale or trade. This has nothing whatsoever to do with branding.

If I frequent a market and tomato seller X has the lowest prices and the freshest tomatos then I buy from them one week. If next week tomato seller Y has the tomatos according to my criteria then I buy from them. The tomato sellers are trying to sell their tomatos to me in response to a perceived demand by me and others. In no way has branding taken place.

The case of branding would be if I am habitually attached to a particular seller for some reason.

Kirt



The purpose of branding is to create demand. Branding creates a perception of limited supply, hence ramping up demand.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:19 pm

Namdrol wrote:The purpose of branding is to create demand. Branding creates a perception of limited supply, hence ramping up demand.
Or the perception of a qualitative difference where no fundamental qualitative difference exists.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:22 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The purpose of branding is to create demand. Branding creates a perception of limited supply, hence ramping up demand.
Or the perception of a qualitative difference where no fundamental qualitative difference exists.


Agreed.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:36 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:
But supply and demand function outside of some complexity about a item for sale or trade. This has nothing whatsoever to do with branding.

If I frequent a market and tomato seller X has the lowest prices and the freshest tomatos then I buy from them one week. If next week tomato seller Y has the tomatos according to my criteria then I buy from them. The tomato sellers are trying to sell their tomatos to me in response to a perceived demand by me and others. In no way has branding taken place.

The case of branding would be if I am habitually attached to a particular seller for some reason.

Kirt



The purpose of branding is to create demand. Branding creates a perception of limited supply, hence ramping up demand.

N


In my example the tomato sellers are not branding anything. They are in their usual stalls selling tomatos. All the tomato sellers have lots of tomatos. The tomato sellers have done useful work. People need tomatos and the tomato sellers have gone to the fields and harvested the tomatos so I don't have to spend time getting the tomatos from the fields.

I don't see how branding creates a perception of limited supply at all. A brand implies that there will be a continuing supply of whatever they are marketing.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:41 pm

kirtu wrote:
I don't see how branding creates a perception of limited supply at all. A brand implies that there will be a continuing supply of whatever they are marketing.


I can't help your lack of vision.

Not necessarily.

And take for example the "organic" brand. Given two tomatoes in a market, side by side -- which will you choose? Organic or non-organic?

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:58 pm

namdrol wrote:The purpose of branding is to create demand. Branding creates a perception of limited supply, hence ramping up demand.

Or the perception of a qualitative difference where no fundamental qualitative difference exists.


Well that is complex because different brands can have actual or perceived advantages or disadvantages.

"Made in Japan" in the 60's was a mark of something cheaply made. From the 80's and really beginning with their process reforms across industries in the 60's they transformed themselves into a mass marketing behemoth esp. in electronics that were high quality and low cost.

American engineering used to be superlative (and actually still is). But managers and bean counters totally destroyed the American engineering advantage. Now Americans can't produce anything of quality because the focus is strictly on lowering costs.

Swiss and German engineering has always been superlative. And you pay for it too.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:01 pm

kirtu wrote:Now Americans can't produce anything of quality because the focus is strictly on lowering costs.



Americans can't produce anything because the manufacturing jobs have all left.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:02 pm

Namdrol wrote:And take for example the "organic" brand. Given two tomatoes in a market, side by side -- which will you choose? Organic or non-organic?


That's apples and oranges. Given no other information I would pick the organic tomatos. However they might be contaminated with salmonella.

In the example I gave all the tomatos were organic. The determination was made just on the basis of perceived freshness and lower costs and branding didn't occur. You can find this exact situation in little markets all though the Spanish speaking world, in open air markets in Germany (if they exist anymore - the last one I was at was in my early 20's) etc. Same for farmer's markets in the US except branding can occur there because branding is how American's think.

In small stores in little towns there can be even less variety. There may only be one bin of tomatos and no information about them and the determination made was how long it takes to walk to the nearest store.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:04 pm

kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:And take for example the "organic" brand. Given two tomatoes in a market, side by side -- which will you choose? Organic or non-organic?


Given no other information I would pick the organic tomatos.


Exactly.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:11 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:Now Americans can't produce anything of quality because the focus is strictly on lowering costs.



Americans can't produce anything because the manufacturing jobs have all left.


No - American's in general can't produce anything of quality because of the exact reasons I gave. The managers and accountants justify everything based on time to market and costs of improving quality, etc.

Software development is the perfect example in fact. American's used to produce most of their software and still largely do even with outsourcing. However software produced today has far more defects than in the past and design for utility, a stated goal, is often missed. Microsoft is the perfect example in their Office Suite and their criminally poor OS's (and an exception to this is their Visual Suite of tools although they can also suffer). In this particular instance American developers exaggerated or at a managerial level exaggerated the fact that removing software defects is difficult (technically intractable of course), ceded that function to external contributors (largely), and just gave up (a lack of understanding of mathematics has also played a role amongst uninspired, unmotivated and ignorant decision makers - intractability does not mean that the problem cannot be dealt with).

America replicated the mistakes of Russia with a bifurcated consumer and militarial economy. This will have disastrous consequences if it continues (it already is - after a century of increasing reliability industrial accidents and general industrial failures are increasing - DC Metro, Amtrak and power company problems are good examples).

Americans shot themselves even without unilaterally deindustrializing.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:44 pm

It's one thing to pay more for something that is qualitatively superior to another and a completely different thing to pay more just because it has a brand name attached to it.

I have seen countless instances of two products that differ not even an iota qualitatively, with a HUGE difference in price just because one has a brand name on it. In most instances the two products even come out of the same factory and follow the same manufacturing process. But I am sure you are aware of that.

But unfotunately we have pulled this thread way off topic with our discussion! :tongue: Sorry Jikan!
:focus:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:09 pm

kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:Now Americans can't produce anything of quality because the focus is strictly on lowering costs.



Americans can't produce anything because the manufacturing jobs have all left.


No - American's in general can't produce anything of quality because of the exact reasons I gave. The managers and accountants justify everything based on time to market and costs of improving quality, etc.

Kirt



This applies everywhere in the world -- the quality of goods worldwide has gone downhill, not just in the US.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby kirtu » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:47 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Americans can't produce anything because the manufacturing jobs have all left.


No - American's in general can't produce anything of quality because of the exact reasons I gave. The managers and accountants justify everything based on time to market and costs of improving quality, etc.

Kirt



This applies everywhere in the world -- the quality of goods worldwide has gone downhill, not just in the US.


Please do not get me started on American's making excuses for things instead of fixing the problem. It's an excuse driven society. It needs to get back on track fast.

It may be that quality has decreased however I have not noticed that in Germany, Holland and Austria (but I don't live there anymore either).

Anyway ....

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
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Re: Branding and Buddhist Institutions

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:50 pm

Things won't get fixed in the US because there is too much money to make with things being broken.

However, it is really not as bad as you think. You just happen to live in one of the the worst parts of the US.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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