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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:33 pm 
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From A Buddhist perspective. Do they go to some kind of heaven that is not eternal and still subject to birth and death? Using exemplary virtous christians as an example


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:47 pm 
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It's likely that they get good rebirths in the upper realms. If there's some sort of godly realm where they take rebirth, I have no idea. Never thought much about it.
However, the fruit of one's karma may depend of more than one life. The same goes for Buddhists.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:22 pm 
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AlexanderS wrote:
From A Buddhist perspective. Do they go to some kind of heaven that is not eternal and still subject to birth and death? Using exemplary virtous christians as an example
Yeah, as a Deva or Asura. They enjoy various pleasures for eons and then die and are reborn elsewhere.

One thing I wonder though, is what happens to someone like David Hume who discovers Emptiness all on his own but (likely) doesn't mediate on it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_theory

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Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:38 pm 
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I think unfortunately(I have heard others voice this)..they may at times stay for a bit in a self created bardo realm of sorts.
Some theorize those talked to in spiritual seances or things of that sort they may be those beings stuck there for a while.,
Self creating all in their bardo, peoples they have known as they may have known them. Thinking a notion of death and then thinking...well being dead as jesus told the truith I must be in heaven.
Firmly stuck with that belief..Oh aunti jane is here with me in heaven.... that type of thought.

When asked in seance..invariably as the questions become more specific..thef answers become not forthcoming.
How old is now aunti jane what does she do all day...things of that manner.

If that is so...it is so sad to be stuck in that fashion.

The bardo keep in mind (some say) each day is a day in the bardo not of our human lives but of the sort where we will next rebirth.
So 49 days, or seven times seven may be very many years of a human sort.

Other than that temporary heaven may be where they go by my guess. Heaven of the competitive sort if they are so inclined combining their good with a need to push their conception of good. Or like a mother theresa..just a plain ordinary heaven as diety within that for a bit.
Enormously long by our human opinion but still ending even for her.
Compassion it is necessary for such to just be born human they say again..so many I would guess would just be born again human. If compassion be the seat of their practice. Compassion but no real understanding of it.

Knowing emptiness as concept without meditation...not much use that thing by my take. With the intellect dissolving would go the understanding and thusly any application of it. Feeling it in our bones by meditational means...that may sustain. Not any intellectual understanding...
AS we used intellect to good means..if we were compassionate also perhaps one would be born again human with great intellect. As we are creatures of habit however would also go with that rebirth the tnedency to again look at all things in a intellectual only view. So quite pointless.

Faulted emptiness conception.... with great meditation but from a faulted basis ..one may hazard the formless realms if one is very accomplished in meditation. Very rare that though.

Those are some of my guessings :smile:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:55 pm 
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Konchog1 wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
From A Buddhist perspective. Do they go to some kind of heaven that is not eternal and still subject to birth and death? Using exemplary virtous christians as an example
Yeah, as a Deva or Asura. They enjoy various pleasures for eons and then die and are reborn elsewhere.

One thing I wonder though, is what happens to someone like David Hume who discovers Emptiness all on his own but (likely) doesn't mediate on it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_theory

:shrug:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:37 am 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
From A Buddhist perspective. Do they go to some kind of heaven that is not eternal and still subject to birth and death? Using exemplary virtous christians as an example
Yeah, as a Deva or Asura. They enjoy various pleasures for eons and then die and are reborn elsewhere.

One thing I wonder though, is what happens to someone like David Hume who discovers Emptiness all on his own but (likely) doesn't mediate on it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_theory

:shrug:


Without Bodhicitta I fail to see how it could be of much benefit. Not to mention the absence of the union of appearance and emptiness would lead him into Nihilism (though I am not familiar with Hume so perhaps he recognized this too). I think it would mean that his mindstream would be more likely to apprehend things as empty of self nature in future lives, making it easier for him to study Dharma if he ever encounters it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:25 am 
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:smile:
"They" (as an entity seperate from other entities) go nowhere.
There is nowhere to go.
Going and coming is an illusion of the mind.
Where does a stream go when it enters the ocean?
But you should already know that.
:smile:

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Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:40 am 
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They are just like everybody else.

They are either good or bad (good or bad karma sprouts after death).

Where do bad people go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly.
They go to a lake of fire and fry.
Won't see them again till the 4'th of July.

Kevin

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http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
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http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:33 am 
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bardo experience resembling their belief system


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:52 am 
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They transform into dust in the same way buddhists do.

Quote:
"Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground — one day, two days, three days dead — bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'...

"Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions — here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a breast bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.'

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:26 pm 
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Yes, that is what happens with their body. The mental continuum, however, doesn't become dust. Have you ever seen a thought or a moment of conscience turning into dust? Neither have I.

So, I'm sure AlexanderS knows quite well what happens to the body after death and I'm also sure that his question was not related to the fate of the body. You too figured that out. Don't be a smartass. This discourse, which you only quoted partially to suit you, provides means for practicing mindfulness in a variety of contexts. It's aim is not to support materialism or any other warped view. Let me not catch you often quoting teachings out of context just to make your twisted points.

Ponder this:
Quote:
The Snake
10.[8] "There are here, O monks, some foolish men who study the Teaching;[9] having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight.[10] They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose[11] for which they[12] (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and when he is grasping its body or its tail, the snake turns back on him and bites his hand or arm or some other limb of his. And because of that he suffers death or deadly pain. And why? Because of his wrong grasp of the snake.
"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
11. "But there are here, O monks, some noble sons who study the Teaching;[13] and having studied it, they examine wisely the purpose of those teachings. To those who wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will yield insight. They do not study the Teaching for the sake of criticizing nor for refuting others in disputation. They experience the purpose for which they study the Teaching; and to them these teachings being rightly grasped, will bring welfare and happiness for a long time. And why? Because of their right grasp of the teachings.
"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and with a forked stick he holds it firmly down. Having done so he catches it firmly by the neck. Then although the snake might entwine with (the coils of) its body that man's hand or arm or some other limb of his, still he does not on that account suffer death or deadly pain. And why not? Because of his right grasp of the snake.
"Similarly, O monks, there are here some noble sons who study the Teaching; and having learned it, they examine wisely the purpose of those teachings. To those who wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will yield insight. They do not study the Teaching for the sake of criticizing nor for refuting others in disputation. They experience the purpose for which they study the Teaching; and to them these teachings being rightly grasped, will bring welfare and happiness for a long time. And why? Because of their right grasp of the teachings.
12. "Therefore, O monks, if you know the purpose of what I have said, you should keep it in mind accordingly. But if you do not know the purpose of what I have said, you should question me about it, or else (ask) those monks who are wise.


You can't say you weren't warned.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:27 pm 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
Yes, that is what happens with their body. The mental continuum, however, doesn't become dust. Have you ever seen a thought or a moment of conscience turning into dust? Neither have I.


How could on see a dharma turning into dust when that dharma has never been seen?

How could one see a continuum of what never has been seen?

Thoughts however can be fabricated without such limitation.

Kind regards


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:32 pm 
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That post is :offtopic: and completely disregards the warning you received just above. Some people need to quit the bad habit of twisting the teachings to suit their particular agendas.


Now,

:focus:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:01 pm 
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As a bit of a aside but still on point....it is said that the gods in their realms may live very very long incalculable amounts of times by our calculations but when they die it is said the flowers they may hold begin to wilt...the it is of their impending death a sign.

WE may read our future rebirth by our present inclinations and circumstance they say and assuredly it is true.
Most christians my guess is they just rebirth as human, as there is a compassionate componant to their belief.
A mother theresa by my take her or similiar may attain a god like state, but as with all other things it is impermenant.
In hinduism there is a story of a female diety who gives as compassionate effort... dreams and thoughts to those humans who are so inclined things of hope and aspiration...I think she may be considered eternal as the good provides enough in the form of good to sustain her place as godlike being, as good is necessary as cause to be in that place of god.

Some buddhists may hold a similiar view of buddhas and how thing operate in that fashion.
I don't hold that view but it seems to me there is much similiarity with those that hold those two things.

So there is much variance in this thing. My guessing are just that.... guessings.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:01 pm 
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alwayson wrote:
bardo experience resembling their belief system


The bardos are very roughly paralleled by the concept of purgatory. I think the Jewish concept of Sheol may also somewhat mimic it.

I'm not saying that they are the same, but merely that the concept of an interim between life and death is not unheard of.

So, needless to say, if a Christian finds herself in a bardo realm, they shouldn't be too surprised by its occurrence.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:08 pm 
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There are many similiarities in these things....in Tibetan buddhism the bardo presents as a series of seven days in which after seven the death process is again experienced and then to become the bardo regressed exactly opposed in sequence the things seen upon dying then to present a being again in bardo..

for a period of seven times or 49 days. Again these (some say) are of the form of days, where one is going to rebirth. Some also say in the latter stages one attains a form akin to that for human that would be as a child of seven or so. A form akin to that where one will rebirth, but a child in that place.

To my understanding some forms of judism also use this 49 day period so there are similiarities.

Some particularly bad or particularly good they are said to bypass the bardo, ansd go directly there, as are said to be beings destined for the formless realms.

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"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:53 am 
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The premise of this thread suggests New Age syncretism. In particular, it suggests the (ridiculous, IMHO) idea that different religions can simultaneously be correct on mutually exclusive doctrine.

If we believe that all sentient beings are reborn according to their karma, then that includes Christians, regardless of whatever they believe. They have their views on where we are going, regardless of what we believe, and all too often they are happy to share those views without invitation.

So, I believe that all people, regardless of their religion, get reborn according to their karma. If they have practiced compassion, bodhicitta, the Six Paramitas, the Eightfold Path, then they will experience a fortunate rebirth, perhaps as a human, perhaps in a Pure Land, parhaps even as a deva. If they have caused harm or lived unskillfully, then they will experience an unfortunate rebirth. Regardless of whatever they believe, I do not believe that either a fortunate rebirth (a.k.a. "heaven) or an unfortunate rebirth (a.k.a. "hell") will be permanent for them. In other words, I have no problem believing that they are wrong. (Though I generally refrain from telling them that, in order to preserve harmonious relations.)

Om mani padme hum
Keith


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:51 am 
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Don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but it's said that there was a medieval Christian book called Ars Moriendi or Art of Dying that was quite similar to the Bardo Thodol, such as descriptions of an Angel who puts black pebbles on one side of the scale and white pebbles on the other, etc.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:49 am 
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AlexanderS wrote:
From A Buddhist perspective. Do they go to some kind of heaven that is not eternal and still subject to birth and death? Using exemplary virtous christians as an example


Christianity could be included amongst the "heavenly vehicle" as the result desired is rebirth in a pleasurable post-mortem state, not liberation from samsara.

If someone followed what Jesus taught, they would gain merit and achieve a state of mind suitable for a rebirth a heaven in the desire realm or possibly even the form realm, but not the formless realm. The latter requires yogic development of which Christianity has no knowledge of.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:03 am 
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Konchog1 wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:
From A Buddhist perspective. Do they go to some kind of heaven that is not eternal and still subject to birth and death? Using exemplary virtous christians as an example
Yeah, as a Deva or Asura. They enjoy various pleasures for eons and then die and are reborn elsewhere.

One thing I wonder though, is what happens to someone like David Hume who discovers Emptiness all on his own but (likely) doesn't mediate on it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_theory


He was quite famously at peace with the prospect of non-existence on his deathbed.

Of course, if we're true to his skepticism about causality, we'd better not speculate where he went!

:anjali:


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