St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby mint » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:53 pm

St. Juan de la Cruz (John of the Cross) was a man very familiar with some of the Dharma. He may have even been a pratyekabuddha. I was cleaning off some bookshelves this past weekend and ran across the classic Dark Night of the Soul, thumbed through some pages, and realized that my Dharma training began with works such as this. I've simply begun the process of shedding the theistic overtones. It is because of works like this which I studied as a Catholic, that I can now look back at my years as a Catholic not with malice or regret but with a sense of accomplishment much the same way I look back at my years as a child and an adolescent knowing that these years provided the foundation for what has always been coming into fruition.

Though Juan de la Cruz discusses reality from the point of a theistic and Spanish Catholic point of view, his message against the temptations of spiritual materialism can ring true for a person of just about any spiritual philosophy or religion. I'm posting this particular passage because, in recent days, I've read countless posts by myself and others about buying buying buying more books, malas, DVDs, signing up for this, signing up for that, on and on and on with the more more more. Reading this passage made me realize that all of this buying and spritual materialism is, ironically, reifying dualism and samsaric existence as it proposes that there is something "out there" which "I" don't already have within; it proposes the reference points of "this" and "that." I am, again, reminded of the words of Chogyam Trungpa who stated that we study not to learn but to sharpen our minds. In many ways, Chogyam Trungpa and Juan dela Cruz were on the same page. May we aspire to be likewise!

Many of these beginners have also at times great spiritual avarice. They will be found to be discontented with the spirituality which God gives them; and they are very disconsolate and querulous because they find not in spiritual things the consolation that they would desire. Many can never have enough of listening to counsels and learning spiritual precepts, and of possessing and reading many books which treat of this matter, and they spend their time on all these things rather than on works of mortification and the perfecting of the inward poverty of spirit which should be theirs. Furthermore, they burden themselves with images and rosaries which are very curious; now they put down one, now take up another; now they change about, now change back again; now they want this kind of thing, now that, preferring one kind of cross to another, because it is more curious. And others you will see adorned with agnusdeis and relics and tokens, like children with trinkets. Here I condemn the attachment of the heart, and the affection which they have for the nature, multitude and curiosity of these things, inasmuch as it is quite contrary to poverty of spirit which considers only the substance of devotion, makes use only of what suffices for that end and grows weary of this other kind of multiplicity and curiosity. For true devotion must issue from the heart, and consist in the truth and substances alone of what is represented by spiritual things; all the rest is affection and attachment proceeding from imperfection; and in order that one may pass to any kind of perfection it is necessary for such desires to be killed.
(La noche oscura del alma (Dark Night of the Soul); Book I, Chapter III)
User avatar
mint
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:45 pm

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Malcolm » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:01 pm

mint wrote:He may have even been a pratyekabuddha.


Quite impossble. Pratyekabuddhas only occur when there is no Buddha.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10169
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby ground » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:10 pm

Namdrol wrote:
mint wrote:He may have even been a pratyekabuddha.


Quite impossble. Pratyekabuddhas only occur when there is no Buddha.

N


Then it would be possible because at that time there was none.

kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Thug4lyfe » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:03 pm

I heard those honourable ones are not keen to teach.
Image
User avatar
Thug4lyfe
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 pm

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:53 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
mint wrote:He may have even been a pratyekabuddha.


Quite impossble. Pratyekabuddhas only occur when there is no Buddha.

N


Then it would be possible because at that time there was none.

kind regards



No, because the Buddha's sasana remains. Pratyekabuddhas only occur when there is no Buddha's sasana, to be more precise.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10169
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Thug4lyfe » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:09 am

Maybe the dude's a sage.
Image
User avatar
Thug4lyfe
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 pm

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby maybay » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:11 am

Food_Eatah wrote:I heard those honourable ones are not keen to teach.

They teach with their body. They can only occur when there is no body of teachings.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
User avatar
maybay
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:12 pm

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby ground » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:31 am

Namdrol wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Quite impossble. Pratyekabuddhas only occur when there is no Buddha.

N


Then it would be possible because at that time there was none.

kind regards



No, because the Buddha's sasana remains. Pratyekabuddhas only occur when there is no Buddha's sasana, to be more precise.

N


C'mon you are preaching metaphysics.

If the teachings of the Buddha are not known in some time and/or region then this is the condition for pratyekabuddhas to arise.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Katy » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:12 am

It stands to reason that pratyekabuddhas will arise in times and regions where Dharma teachings are not known, regardless of what scriptures might say.

What I can't understand is why there can't be, say, a thousand teaching Buddhas all teaching at the same time.

As mature adults, surely they can get together and make sure that they are teaching the same story, so as not to confuse people? Furthermore, I can't see why they would need to get together, since they would already be teaching the same thing regardless of what words or languages they were using.
Katy
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:05 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby ground » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:47 am

Katy wrote:What I can't understand is why there can't be, say, a thousand teaching Buddhas all teaching at the same time.

A "Buddha" appears due to being perceived as such.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Katy » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:55 am

TMingyur wrote:
Katy wrote:What I can't understand is why there can't be, say, a thousand teaching Buddhas all teaching at the same time.

A "Buddha" appears due to being perceived as such.


Okay. So let's say, for argument's sake, that all 1000 Buddhas are equally good teachers, and all have an equal number of students who perceive them to be Buddhas, and who regard their own Buddha to be the best one. So in that case there are 1000 teaching Buddhas, even though, according to the followers of any one of them, there is only one.
Katy
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:05 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby ground » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:07 am

Katy wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Katy wrote:What I can't understand is why there can't be, say, a thousand teaching Buddhas all teaching at the same time.

A "Buddha" appears due to being perceived as such.


Okay. So let's say, for argument's sake, that all 1000 Buddhas are equally good teachers, and all have an equal number of students who perceive them to be Buddhas, and who regard their own Buddha to be the best one. So in that case there are 1000 teaching Buddhas, even though, according to the followers of any one of them, there is only one.


It could be like this. But I don't know. I can only assess from my own perspective which is not the perspective of others.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Thug4lyfe » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:40 am

During the Dharma Ending age Buddhas do not manifest in the "Buddha form". So lets not worry about actually meeting Buddhas right now.
Image
User avatar
Thug4lyfe
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 pm

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Katy » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:48 am

Food_Eatah wrote:During the Dharma Ending age Buddhas do not manifest in the "Buddha form". So lets not worry about actually meeting Buddhas right now.


How do we know we are in the Dharma Ending Age? Could it be possible that we have crossed over into an age of a new Dharma?
Katy
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:05 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Thug4lyfe » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:53 am

Katy wrote:
Food_Eatah wrote:During the Dharma Ending age Buddhas do not manifest in the "Buddha form". So lets not worry about actually meeting Buddhas right now.


How do we know we are in the Dharma Ending Age? Could it be possible that we have crossed over into an age of a new Dharma?

lol, not yet homeboy! Maitreya Buddha isn't predicted to arrive for a long time!
Image
User avatar
Thug4lyfe
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 pm

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Katy » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:01 am

Food_Eatah wrote:Maitreya Buddha isn't predicted to arrive for a long time!


Forgive me, I have many questions.

How can we predict when the next Buddha will arrive? And who is it who is making these predictions? Are these predictions credible?
Katy
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:05 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby ground » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:19 am

Food_Eatah wrote:During the Dharma Ending age Buddhas do not manifest in the "Buddha form". So lets not worry about actually meeting Buddhas right now.

This is just a fantasy which however - if cultivated - will function as self fulfilling prophecy.


Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby maybay » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:04 pm

Katy wrote:It stands to reason that pratyekabuddhas will arise in times and regions where Dharma teachings are not known, regardless of what scriptures might say.

What I can't understand is why there can't be, say, a thousand teaching Buddhas all teaching at the same time.

As mature adults, surely they can get together and make sure that they are teaching the same story, so as not to confuse people? Furthermore, I can't see why they would need to get together, since they would already be teaching the same thing regardless of what words or languages they were using.

Degenerate times is many times. Many places out of time: this is what he wants. :stirthepot:
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
User avatar
maybay
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:12 pm

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby Thug4lyfe » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:48 pm

Katy wrote:
Food_Eatah wrote:Maitreya Buddha isn't predicted to arrive for a long time!


Forgive me, I have many questions.

How can we predict when the next Buddha will arrive? And who is it who is making these predictions? Are these predictions credible?

Sakyamuni Buddha did. You should google for the cartoon clips on youtube about Maitreya Buddha!
Image
User avatar
Thug4lyfe
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:40 pm

Re: St. John of the Cross on Spiritual Materialism

Postby tsultrim » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:27 am

Food_Eatah wrote:Sakyamuni Buddha did. You should google for the cartoon clips on youtube about Maitreya Buddha!


I don't believe that anyone can predict the future with certainty - not even the Buddha. This is because it is impossible for any being to have knowledge of all details in the universe.

If you have a logical proof that it is possible to predict the future with certainty, then I am very interested to see it.
tsultrim
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:48 pm

Next

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dan74, JKhedrup and 9 guests

>