The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby KevinSolway » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:24 am

This discussion is a continuation from one that began in "Buddhism on God" (http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5364&start=420)

wisdom wrote:Sure, I get that in your mind Dharmakaya and Dharmadhatu are the same.


I have stated that the Dharmadhatu gives more emphasis to the mind, and the Dharmakaya to the body, as the words themselves suggest. Their meanings are subtly different.

If you HAVE the Dharmakaya, you are not the totality of the Dharmadhatu.


No person can "have" the Dharmakaya. It's logically impossible. The Dharmakaya is bigger than the person.

If they were truly the same then your Dharma-Body would BE the Dharma-Realm, which means that everyone elses experience of the Dharma-Realm was nothing more than them experiencing YOUR Dharma-Body.


There is no such thing as "YOUR Dharma-Body", so your whole argument is built on a false premise. There's only one Dharmakaya.

Nagarjuna on the Dharma-kaya:

The Bodhisattva even though embodied in the dharma-kaya, still assumes the body of flesh for the purpose of helping people. He is not bound by the deeds of passion, nor to the realms of determinate existence. He has freely taken on the body born of dharmata...

Nagarjuna, commentary on the Prajnaparamita sutra


"Embodied in the dharma-kaya" doesn't mean that his body is the Dharmakaya. A brick is embodied in a building. A bodhisattva is not all bodhisattvas.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby wisdom » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:16 am

As I said argue with Nagarjuna if you want, and believe you know better than him.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby KevinSolway » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:19 am

wisdom wrote:Argue with Nagarjuna if you want


Nagarjuna has no disagreement with me.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby wisdom » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:58 am

In a sense you're correct, Nagarjuna doesn't ultimately disagree with anyone.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby ground » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:38 am

KevinSolway wrote:I have stated that the Dharmadhatu gives more emphasis to the mind, and the Dharmakaya to the body, as the words themselves suggest. Their meanings are subtly different.


For your (optional) inspiration a translation taken from "Primordial experience"

Dharmadhatu: total field of events and meanings
Dharmakaya: primordial contact with the total field of events and meanings


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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby KevinSolway » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:32 am

Dharmakaya: primordial contact with the total field of events and meanings


"Primordial contact" refers to something more fundamental than the conscious mind. It is the "intelligence" of cause and effect itself, which ties together the field of events and meanings.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby KevinSolway » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:50 am

As food for thought, here are a whole lot of other definitions to mull over. Of special interest is number 5:

Dharmakaya (Dharúmaúkaúya) (?), n.
[Sanskrit, dharma Law + -kaaya body. [w] san-lun, [p] san1lun4, [k] samnon, [j] sanron.]

1. The dharmakaya (fa-shen ) is the experience of the transcendence of form of the five senses - and realization of true thusness.
2. the Buddha body in its self-nature, which is the same as the dharma body;
3. The Dharma body (fa-shen) is considered to be the eternal indestructible true principle, the Buddha's original body.
4. 1. Dharmakaya (body of the great order); the true nature of the Buddha, which is identical with reality, the essential laws of the universe. Equal to the laws of physics. The Dharmakaya is the experience of the unity of the laws of physics. It represents the "law" (dharma), the teaching expounded by the Buddha.
5. The Experience is timeless, permanent, devoid of characteristics and free from duality. It is the spiritual body of the buddhas, their true nature, which all buddhas have in common. Various names are applied to the Dharmakaya depending on whether it is being taken as the true nature of being (dharmata, dharmadhatu, tathata, bhutatathata, shunyata, alaya-vijnana) or as the true nature of the buddhas (buddhata, buddha-nature, tathagatagarbha).
6. The Dharmakaya is realized through transcendental wisdom (prajna).
7. The Dharmakaya (Jap., hosshin) is consciousness experienced as unified existence (laws of physics). The experience is beyond all concepts, and is characterized by completion and perfection, out of which all mental forms arise.
8. The Dharmakaya stands for the fundamental truth of emptiness (shunyata), the experience of reality or enlightenment.

http://selfknowledge.com/109716.htm

The late Chogyam Trungpa called the dharmakaya "the basis of the original unbornness."
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:55 pm

Svabhavikakaya (Skt. svābhāvikakāya; Tib. ངོ་བོ་ཉིད་སྐུ་, ngowo nyi ku; Wyl. ngo bo nyid sku) is one of the four kayas of a buddha.
Khenpo Pema Vajra says:
"The svabhavikakaya, is defined as the aspect of enlightened form that is distinguished by two-fold purity, the natural purity of basic space of reality and the purification of all temporary stains."
It is the ultimate buddha kaya. Its wisdom aspect is called the wisdom dharmakaya. And its appearance as a form kaya complete with fivefold certainty in the perception of pure beings is the sambhogakaya. Its appearance as a form kaya to impure beings is the nirmanakaya

Wisdom dharmakaya (Skt. jñānadharmakāya; Tib. yeshe chöku; Wyl. ye shes chos sku) is one of the four kayas mentioned in the Abhisamayalankara.
Khenpo Pema Vajra says:
“The wisdom dharmakaya is defined as the ultimate wisdom arising from the total transformation at the level of buddhahood which provides the basis for the twenty-one sets of immaculate qualities.”

Rupakaya (Skt. rūpakāya; Tib. གཟུགས་སྐུ་, zukku; Wyl. gzugs sku) refers to the two 'form kayas' of a buddha: nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya. It is said that the rupakaya arises from the accumulation of merit and the dharmakaya from the accumulation of wisdom.

Sambhogakaya (Skt. saṃbhogakāya; Tib. ལོངས་སྐུ་, longku; Wyl. longs sku) is defined as a 'form body' (rupakaya) of a buddha, which appears only to bodhisattvas and is the basis for the arising of the nirmanakaya. It is adorned with the major signs and minor marks.

Nirmanakaya (Skt. nirāmaṇakāya; Tib. སྤྲུལ་སྐུ་, trulku; Wyl. sprul sku), or 'the dimension of ceaseless manifestation', is defined as a rupakaya or 'form body' that arises from the ruling condition of the sambhogakaya and appears as the tamer of various beings, both pure and impure.
When it is divided, there are four kinds:
1.Nirmanakaya through birth, such as our teacher taking birth in the heaven of Tushita as the son of the gods, Dampa Tok Karpo.
2.Supreme nirmanakaya (Skt. uttamanirāmaṇakāya; Tib. མཆོག་གི་སྤྲུལ་སྐུ་, Wyl. mchog gi sprul sku), such as Shakyamuni Buddha who displayed the twelve deeds here in Jambudvipa.
3.Diverse nirmanakaya (Skt. janmanirāmaṇakāya; Tib. སྐྱེ་བ་སྤྲུལ་སྐུ, Wyl. skye ba sprul sku) that manifest in order to tame various beings from Indra to a young girl.
4.Craft nirmanakaya (Skt. śilpinnirāmaṇakāya; Tib. བཟོ་བོ་སྤྲུལ་སྐུ་, Wyl. bzo bo sprul sku) such as the manifestation of the lute player in order to tame the gandharva Rabga, and as good food, bridges, pleasure gardens, and islands, as well as sculpted forms, paintings, woven images and cast metal statues."
Or, as Sogyal Rinpoche writes:
"In Tibetan Buddhism the nirmanakaya is envisioned as the manifestation of enlightenment, in an infinite variety of forms and ways, in the physical world. It is traditionally defined in three ways.
One is the manifestation of a completely realized Buddha, such as Gautama Siddhartha, who is born into the world and teaches in it; another is a seemingly ordinary being who is blessed with a special capacity to benefit others: a tulku; and the third is actually a being through whom some degree of enlightenment works to benefit and inspire others through various arts, crafts, and sciences. In their case this enlightened impulse is, as Kalu Rinpoche says, "a spontaneous expression, just as light radiates spontaneously from the sun without the sun issuing directives or giving any conscious thought to the matter. The sun is, and it radiates."

Dharmadhatu (Skt. dharmadhātu; Tib. chö ying; Tib. ཆོས་ཀྱི་དབྱིངས་, Wyl. chos kyi dbyings) — literally ‘the essence or expanse of phenomena’. All-encompassing space. Dharmadhatu can be synonymous with buddha nature.
Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche writes:
"The word for space is དབྱིངས་, ying in Tibetan, dhātu in Sanskrit. […] The word space is used because the dharmadhatu is like the body or realm of empty space where different things, like clouds, birds, and airplanes can fly around without obstruction. This is because the nature of space is empty and nonexistent. Due to this quality of openness, things can occur. Likewise, dharmadhatu is the essence of things—empty and inconcrete—where all phenomena such as trees, houses, mountains, oneself, other beings, emotions, wisdom, and all experiences can occur openly."
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche says:
"The main image of dharmadhatu is that of space—the ‘space of all things’ within which all phenomena manifest, abide and dissolve back into. […] Dharmadhatu is the basic environment of all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana. It encompasses whatever appears and exists, including the worlds and all beings.[…] The relationship between dharmadhatu, dharmakaya and [the wisdom of dharmadhatu] is like the relationship between a place, a person and the person’s mind. If there is no place, there is no environment for the person to exist in; and there is no person unless that person also has a mind dwelling in the body. In the same way, the main field or realm called dharmadhatu has the nature of dharmakaya. Dharmakaya has the quality of [the wisdom of dharmadhatu], which is like the mind aspect. […] "Dharmadhatu is adorned with dharmakaya, which is endowed with [the wisdom of dharmadhatu]." This is a brief but very profound statement, because ‘dharmadhatu’ also refers to sugatagarbha or buddha nature.
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Dharmadhatu
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby KevinSolway » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:53 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
"The word for space is དབྱིངས་, ying in Tibetan, dhātu in Sanskrit. […] The word space is used . . .


From the research I've done, that is wrong.

Dhātu in Sanskrit means "layer, stratum, constituent part, ingredient, element, primitive matter"

For example, the four physical elements are said to include earth (pathavī-dhātu), water (āpo-dhātu), fire (tejo-dhātu) and wind (vāyo-dhātu).

So it is entirely wrong to say that the "Dharmadhatu is the basic environment of all phenomena", since it is not an environment, not a "space" of any kind, and definitely doesn't "encompass" anything.

Rather, it is whatever appears and exists. In other words, it doesn't merely make it possible, or provide a space for things to happen.

This misconception leads to other errors when Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche starts to talk about the Dharmakaya.
(This is assuming that the translation accurately reflected his words, if it was a translation)
Last edited by KevinSolway on Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:16 pm

Now I wonder why I would take Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoches word and understanding over yours, hmmmm... Let me see...
Short Biography of
Ninth Khenchen Thrangu Tulku,
Karma Lodrö Lungrik Maway Senge
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Venerable Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche was born in Kham, Tibet, in 1933. At the age of five, he was formally recognized by His Holiness the Sixteenth Karmapa and Tai Situpa as the ninth incarnation of the great Thrangu tulku. He entered Thrangu monastery, where, from the ages of seven to sixteen, he studied reading, writing, grammar, poetry, and astrology, memorized ritual texts, and completed two preliminary retreats. At sixteen, under the direction of Khenpo Lodro Rabsel, he began the study of the three vehicles of Buddhism while in retreat. At twenty-three he received full ordination from the Karmapa.
Because of the Chinese military takeover of Tibet, Thrangu Rinpoche, then twenty-seven, was forced to flee to India in 1959. He was called to Rumtek monastery in Sikkim, where the Karmapa has his seat in exile. Because of his great scholarship and unending diligence, he was given the task of preserving the teachings of the Kagyu lineage; the lineage of Marpa, Milarepa, and Gampopa, so that one thousand years of profound Buddhist teachings would not be lost.

He continued his studies in exile, and at the age of thirty-five he took the geshe examination before 1500 monks at Buxador monastic refugee camp in Bengal and was awarded the degree of Geshe Lharampa. Upon his return to Rumtek, he was awarded the highest Khenchen degree. Because many of the Buddhist texts in Tibet were destroyed, Thrangu Rinpoche helped in beginning the recovery of these texts from Tibetan monasteries outside of Tibet. He was named Abbot of Rumtek monastery and the Nalanda Institute for Higher Buddhist Studies at Rumtek. Thrangu Rinpoche, along with Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, was one of the principal teachers at the Institute, training all the younger tulkus of the lineage, including The Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, who was in the first class. He was also the personal tutor of the four principal Karma Kagyu tulkus: Shamar Rinpoche, Situ Rinpoche, Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, and Gyaltsab Rinpoche. Thrangu Rinpoche established the fundamental curriculum of the Karma Kagyu lineage taught at Rumtek. In addition, he taught with Khenpo Karthar, who had been a teacher at Thrangu Rinpoche's monastery in Tibet before 1959, and who is now head of Karma Triyana Dharmachakra in Woodstock, New York, the seat of His Holiness Karmapa in North America.

After twenty years at Rumtek, in 1976 Thrangu Rinpoche founded the small monastery of Thrangu Tashi Choling in Boudhanath, Kathmandu, Nepal. Since then, he has founded a retreat center and college at Namo Buddha, east of the Kathmandu Valley, and has established a school in Boudhanath for the general education of Tibetan lay children and young monks in Western subjects as well as in Buddhist studies. In Kathmandu, he built Tara Abbey, which offers a full dharma education for Tibetan nuns, training them to become khenpos or teachers. He has also established a free medical clinic in an impoverished area of Nepal.

Thrangu Rinpoche recently completed a large, beautiful monastery in Sarnath, India, overlooking the Deer Park where the Buddha gave his first teaching on the Four Noble Truths. This monastery is named Vajra Vidya after the Sixteenth Gyalwa Karmapa, and it is now the seat for the annual Kagyu conference led by His Holiness the Seventeenth Karmapa. In January of this year, His Holiness the Dalai Lama came to Sarnath to perform a ceremony in the Deer Park with the Karmapa, Thrangu Rinpoche, and other high lamas.

Around 1976, Thrangu Rinpoche began giving authentic Buddhist teachings in the West. He has traveled extensively throughout Europe, Asia, and the United States. In 1984 he spent several months in Tibet where he ordained over one hundred monks and nuns and visited several monasteries. In the United States, Thrangu Rinpoche has centers in Maine and California, and is currently building the Vajra Vidya Retreat Center in Crestone, Colorado. Highly qualified monks and nuns from Thrangu Rinpoche's monastery will give retreatants instruction in various intensive practices. He often visits and gives teachings in centers in New York, Connecticut, and Seattle, Washington. In Canada, he gives teachings in Vancouver and has a center in Edmonton. He is the Abbot of Gampo Abbey, a Buddhist monastery in Nova Scotia. He conducts yearly Namo Buddha seminars in the United States, Canada, and Europe, which are also part of a meditation retreat.

Rinpoche has now taught in over twenty-five countries and has seventeen centers in twelve countries. He is especially known for making complex teachings accessible to Western students. Thrangu Rinpoche is a recognized master of Mahamudra meditation.

Because of his vast knowledge of the Dharma and his skill as a teacher, he was appointed by His Holiness the Dalai Lama to be the personal tutor for His Holiness the Seventeenth Karmapa.
Oh, yeah, I guess that's why...
Khenchen Thrangu Tulku.gif
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Long life to Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby KevinSolway » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:24 pm

10 out 10 for appeal to authority.

Why don't you post another hundred pages?
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:31 pm

Well you know Kev
Edit: image deleted; as right as you may be, Greg, I can't allow this. :lol: (DN)
I'm trying hard to understand your point of view
But it just ain't working :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby padma norbu » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:44 pm

KevinSolway wrote:10 out 10 for appeal to authority.

Why don't you post another hundred pages?



Ahem. You said "From the research I've done..." and then disregard the opposition on grounds of "appeal to authority." Yet, I believe if everyone agreed with you and cited you in all their future dharma endeavors, you'd be pleased as punch and happy as a clam.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:25 pm

Be careful the dictionary you choose.

Dharmadhatu and dharmakaya are synonyms in the Buddha's teachings. He uses kaya, dhatu and ayatana synonymously. Perhaps you were not aware of that. All this relates to the sense-media and cognition. It boils down to what "a dharma" is. "A dharma" is a percept-feeling-concept combination. For example, there is contact with skin. That contact is painful or pleasant. It is loved or hated. This is the same as nirmana, sambhoga, dharma respectively. A Buddha has contact, feels pleasant or pain, but does not judge good or bad, is awake to this normally autonomous processes, does not suffer, and therefore experiences bliss.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby padma norbu » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:30 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Be careful the dictionary you choose.

Dharmadhatu and dharmakaya are synonyms in the Buddha's teachings. He uses kaya, dhatu and ayatana synonymously. Perhaps you were not aware of that.


Examples? Every teacher I've ever heard from breaks it down the same way as the Rigpawiki article more or less. I believe I heard Namkhai Norbu say that "dharmadhatu is like the individual experience of dharmakaya" which, given the way he speaks, sounds pretty close to what Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche said

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche says:
The main image of dharmadhatu is that of space—the ‘space of all things’ within which all phenomena manifest, abide and dissolve back into. […] Dharmadhatu is the basic environment of all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana. It encompasses whatever appears and exists, including the worlds and all beings.[…] The relationship between dharmadhatu, dharmakaya and [the wisdom of dharmadhatu] is like the relationship between a place, a person and the person’s mind. If there is no place, there is no environment for the person to exist in; and there is no person unless that person also has a mind dwelling in the body. In the same way, the main field or realm called dharmadhatu has the nature of dharmakaya. Dharmakaya has the quality of [the wisdom of dharmadhatu], which is like the mind aspect. […] "Dharmadhatu is adorned with dharmakaya, which is endowed with [the wisdom of dharmadhatu]." This is a brief but very profound statement, because ‘dharmadhatu’ also refers to sugatagarbha or buddha nature.[2]

And, so, without examples to back up your statement, I am inclined to believe otherwise.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:26 pm

Honestly, I do not ascribe to those descriptions. It's a lot of poetry only, mostly based on faulty translations of fautly Abhidharma analyses (making the basic subjects far more complicated and abstract than they need to be), that have in turn given rise to entirely faulty traditions. But you can look at the early suttas yourself to see how the Buddha used the words dharma, dhatu and ayatana.

(Mula Sutta)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(Dhatu Sutta)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(Sabba Sutta)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Space of Phenomena" is a bad translation of dharmadhatu. Then one gets into a whole bunch of stuff about space and yoga, which in my opinion is on a wrong track. I am a Vajrayana practitioner mind you, so I am not discounting the power of the path of methods.

I cannot stress enough, one must clearly understand what "a dharma" is in Buddhist terms. This will clear up a lot. If you know in simple and clear terms what "a dharma" is, then what a "dharmakaya" or a "dharmadhatu" is will be very clear. There is no dharma apart from perception and cognition. So right there you are Xing out "outer" phenomena such as space. Also there is no such thing as "intrinsic awareness" in Buddhism, so there is no "inner space" either. Light touches the retina (phassa) and the brain constructs an image (vinnana); the mind says "this is X" (namarupa). You get some feeling (vedana) of pleasure or pain, and love or hate it (upadana), which makes you want to do something about it (tanha). In other words, 12-links is the dharmadhatu/dharmakaya. There is no "dharma" apart from 12-links, so how could there be a "dharmadhatu" or a "dharmakaya" that is something else either? Not knowing this is avidya. Knowing this is vidya (wisdom).
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby padma norbu » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:32 am

deepbluehum wrote:Honestly, I do not ascribe to those descriptions. It's a lot of poetry only, mostly based on faulty translations of fautly Abhidharma analyses (making the basic subjects far more complicated and abstract than they need to be), that have in turn given rise to entirely faulty traditions. But you can look at the early suttas yourself to see how the Buddha used the words dharma, dhatu and ayatana.

(Mula Sutta)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(Dhatu Sutta)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(Sabba Sutta)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Space of Phenomena" is a bad translation of dharmadhatu. Then one gets into a whole bunch of stuff about space and yoga, which in my opinion is on a wrong track. I am a Vajrayana practitioner mind you, so I am not discounting the power of the path of methods.


You should be a guru then, no? It seems to me your understanding must be beyond those of the teacher you follow if you are a vajrayana practitioner.

deepbluehum wrote:I cannot stress enough, one must clearly understand what "a dharma" is in Buddhist terms. This will clear up a lot. If you know in simple and clear terms what "a dharma" is, then what a "dharmakaya" or a "dharmadhatu" is will be very clear. There is no dharma apart from perception and cognition. So right there you are Xing out "outer" phenomena such as space. Also there is no such thing as "intrinsic awareness" in Buddhism, so there is no "inner space" either. Light touches the retina (phassa) and the brain constructs an image (vinnana); the mind says "this is X" (namarupa). You get some feeling (vedana) of pleasure or pain, and love or hate it (upadana), which makes you want to do something about it (tanha). In other words, 12-links is the dharmadhatu/dharmakaya. There is no "dharma" apart from 12-links, so how could there be a "dharmadhatu" or a "dharmakaya" that is something else either? Not knowing this is avidya. Knowing this is vidya (wisdom).


"Like space" is not the same as space. "Space of Phenomena" is not talking about actual space. It is likened to space because, what else could you compare it to? All the analogies, such as the crystal ball, the mirror, the sun and space are just analogies, and always explained as such.

Despite what you have just said, I see no error in the Vajrayana definitions which was supposedly pointed out in the suttas you linked. If "dharmadhatu" is exactly the same as "dharmakaya," why did he use two terms? And why are all the Tibetan gurus apparently not as knowledgeable in the matter as you are?
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby wisdom » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:00 am

The definitions I posted were from Nagarjunas commentary and the way he uses them, but perhaps the translator was flawed in that case.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:00 pm

Culture and tradition.
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Re: The Dharmakaya. The Truth Body.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:27 pm

According Vasubandhu, the meaning of dhātu is mine i.e. source.

The definition Tibetans (such as Longchenpa and Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen) give for dbying is dbyung gnas i.e. source. The proper, though clumsy translation, of dharmadhātu i.e. chos kyi dbying in a Mahāyāna context therefore, is "source of phenomena".

In Abhidharma dharmadhātu means the object of the mind, comprised all mental factors as well as three unconditioned phenomena. To distinguish this Abhidharma concept of dharmadhātu the Tibetans translate it as chos kyi khams i.e. element of phenomena.



padma norbu wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Honestly, I do not ascribe to those descriptions. It's a lot of poetry only, mostly based on faulty translations of fautly Abhidharma analyses (making the basic subjects far more complicated and abstract than they need to be), that have in turn given rise to entirely faulty traditions. But you can look at the early suttas yourself to see how the Buddha used the words dharma, dhatu and ayatana.

(Mula Sutta)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(Dhatu Sutta)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(Sabba Sutta)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Space of Phenomena" is a bad translation of dharmadhatu. Then one gets into a whole bunch of stuff about space and yoga, which in my opinion is on a wrong track. I am a Vajrayana practitioner mind you, so I am not discounting the power of the path of methods.


You should be a guru then, no? It seems to me your understanding must be beyond those of the teacher you follow if you are a vajrayana practitioner.

deepbluehum wrote:I cannot stress enough, one must clearly understand what "a dharma" is in Buddhist terms. This will clear up a lot. If you know in simple and clear terms what "a dharma" is, then what a "dharmakaya" or a "dharmadhatu" is will be very clear. There is no dharma apart from perception and cognition. So right there you are Xing out "outer" phenomena such as space. Also there is no such thing as "intrinsic awareness" in Buddhism, so there is no "inner space" either. Light touches the retina (phassa) and the brain constructs an image (vinnana); the mind says "this is X" (namarupa). You get some feeling (vedana) of pleasure or pain, and love or hate it (upadana), which makes you want to do something about it (tanha). In other words, 12-links is the dharmadhatu/dharmakaya. There is no "dharma" apart from 12-links, so how could there be a "dharmadhatu" or a "dharmakaya" that is something else either? Not knowing this is avidya. Knowing this is vidya (wisdom).


"Like space" is not the same as space. "Space of Phenomena" is not talking about actual space. It is likened to space because, what else could you compare it to? All the analogies, such as the crystal ball, the mirror, the sun and space are just analogies, and always explained as such.

Despite what you have just said, I see no error in the Vajrayana definitions which was supposedly pointed out in the suttas you linked. If "dharmadhatu" is exactly the same as "dharmakaya," why did he use two terms? And why are all the Tibetan gurus apparently not as knowledgeable in the matter as you are?
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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