Are women conscious?

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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:29 pm

Namdrol wrote:How does this thread have anything to do with Buddhism?

Kevin is entitled to his mysogany. And I think that exposing him to ridicule over it is a little cruel and certainly will not make him question whether or not his biological determinism is justified.


Did you not see 3rd post in thread?

padma norbu wrote:I think that the question is relevant to Buddhism. What did Buddha say about women? Did he say there were conscious, too? Do they have the same 5 poisons as the men? Hmmm.


This is the dharma free-for-all and this is certainly related to Buddhism if there's a guy out there calling himself "Buddhist" with 2 youtube channels, a website, a podcast, posting on at least 3 forums including this one, trying desperately to disseminate his views to "do something great" in his words and this is one of his core concerns.

So, Namdrol, do women have the 5 poisons, then? Or not? While it was traditional in Buddhism due to cultural circumstances and implications to find a male human birth most favorable, is there anything to suggest women are not conscious?

:thanks:
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:37 pm

padma norbu wrote:
So, Namdrol, do women have the 5 poisons, then? Or not? While it was traditional in Buddhism due to cultural circumstances and implications to find a male human birth most favorable, is there anything to suggest women are not conscious?


Yes, woman are sentient beings, obviously, and they have three or five poisons. No, there is nothing to suggest in traditional literature that women are not conscious, indeed, there were many female arhats during the time of the Buddha and later; not to mention female bodhisattvas and Buddhas.

N
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby KevinSolway » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:41 pm

Namdrol wrote:Fortunately, this does apply to all Mahāyāna sutras, the episode with the Goddess of the Ganges being a pointed example:


Even Hsuan Hua, the so-called "misogynist" relates the case of the dragon king's daughter:

"When Sariputra said that she could not become a Buddha, she took a precious gem, her most valuable and cherished possession, and offered it to the Buddha, who accepted it. She then asked Sariputra if the Buddha's acceptance of her offering was fast, and he replied that, indeed, it had been quick. "I shall become a Buddha that quickly," she said and then she became a Buddha. This is proof that women's lot is not hopeless. All they must do is resolve to cultivate courageously and they too can become Buddhas."

Different sutras are written for those of different capacity. Those with a mysogynistic bent, are, from my perspective, written intending those of lower capacity i.e. men who suffer from mysogyny and woman who suffer at the hands of mysogynistic men and wish to escape their "lower birth".


Your interpretation is mistaken. I haven't seen any sutras with a misogynistic bent. It takes but a single moment for a woman to be reborn as a man, provided the conditions are met.

Remember that rebirth is not about physical bodies, but mental ones. A woman does not require the physical form of a male to be reborn as male.

The truth is that there is no such thing as gender in phenomena


You said yourself that different beings have different capacities. That is what we are talking about here. It's nothing to do with physical sex. A person with a woman's physical body can mentally be male. In that case she has been reborn as a man.

you are not presenting a balanced picture, presenting both negative and positive representations of women


That's not really true, since I did give a reference to the story about the dragon king's daughter, which I repeated above.
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:45 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
So, Namdrol, do women have the 5 poisons, then? Or not? While it was traditional in Buddhism due to cultural circumstances and implications to find a male human birth most favorable, is there anything to suggest women are not conscious?


Yes, woman are sentient beings, obviously, and they have three or five poisons. No, there is nothing to suggest in traditional literature that women are not conscious, indeed, there were many female arhats during the time of the Buddha and later; not to mention female bodhisattvas and Buddhas.

N



Thanks, I know we all know that, but I wanted to get some authoritative response because, you know, I like appeal to authority. :smile:
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:47 pm

Kevin,

How do you feel about feminine examples in Buddhist culture such as Prajnaparamita, Samantabadri, Vajra Yogini, Yeshe Tsogyal, Machig Labdron, Tara, Kuan Yin, and the dakini in general?

Does it gall you that Tara is considered "the mother of all Buddhas" and her essence is identical to all male Buddhas? Or do you just have issues with her human female incarnations?
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:51 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Fortunately, this does apply to all Mahāyāna sutras, the episode with the Goddess of the Ganges being a pointed example:


Even Hsuan Hua, the so-called "misogynist" relates the case of the dragon king's daughter:

"When Sariputra said that she could not become a Buddha, she took a precious gem, her most valuable and cherished possession, and offered it to the Buddha, who accepted it. She then asked Sariputra if the Buddha's acceptance of her offering was fast, and he replied that, indeed, it had been quick. "I shall become a Buddha that quickly," she said and then she became a Buddha. This is proof that women's lot is not hopeless. All they must do is resolve to cultivate courageously and they too can become Buddhas."



Not a perfect example. In the actual text of the sutra,the Saddharmapundrika, before the nāgā princess becomes a Buddha, she first transforms into a male bodhisattva and then becomes a Buddha.



Different sutras are written for those of different capacity. Those with a mysogynistic bent, are, from my perspective, written intending those of lower capacity i.e. men who suffer from mysogyny and woman who suffer at the hands of mysogynistic men and wish to escape their "lower birth".


Your interpretation is mistaken. I haven't seen any sutras with a misogynistic bent. It takes but a single moment for a woman to be reborn as a man, provided the conditions are met.


You are a mysogynist, so naturally you don't see these texts as being "mysogynistic".

There is no reason why a woman should want to be a man, apart from men telling her that her state is inferior.



Remember that rebirth is not about physical bodies, but mental ones. A woman does not require the physical form of a male to be reborn as male.


Rebirth is minds appropriating physical bodies, Kevin.



The truth is that there is no such thing as gender in phenomena


You said yourself that different beings have different capacities. That is what we are talking about here. It's nothing to do with physical sex. A person with a woman's physical body can mentally be male. In that case she has been reborn as a man.


As I said, there is no reason why a woman would want to be any other gender than the one she possesses, the same for a man -- unless said person has transgender impulses.

In Buddhist texts, men are considered method, but woman, wisdom. Awakening comes about from uniting means and wisdom.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby KevinSolway » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:07 pm

padma norbu wrote:Does it gall you that Tara is considered "the mother of all Buddhas"


Not one little bit, since I am a worshipper of Mother Nature, remember.

Or do you just have issues with her human female incarnations?


It's a matter of consciousness vs unconsciousness. It's not a matter of whether a person has a physically female body or male physical body, since, as Hsuan Hua relates, it's possible for a being who is physically female to become a Buddha in a single instant of time.
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:11 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
It's a matter of consciousness vs unconsciousness.



Frankly, Kevin, to be blunt -- this is a very stupid way to put things. To say that male = consciousness and female = unconsciousness is plain stupid.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby KevinSolway » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:34 pm

Namdrol wrote:Frankly, Kevin, to be blunt -- this is a very stupid way to put things. To say that male = consciousness and female = unconsciousness is plain stupid.


I don't know how many of the people that have been participating in this "Dharma-free-for-all" forum, since I've been here, are physically female, but I strongly suspect that the number is no higher than one or two.

I run a Youtube channel about philosophy with almost 1,500 subscribers, only 3% of which are female, and of that 3% at least half a dozen of them are male-to-female transsexuals.

This lack of interest in philosophy, and lack of interest in the realm of ideas, by those who are physically female, is no coincidence.

How many female geniuses have there been throughout the whole of human history? None, so far as any thinking being can tell. Perhaps there are one or two who are marginal.
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:43 pm

:ban:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Mr. G » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:49 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
This lack of interest in philosophy, and lack of interest in the realm of ideas, by those who are physically female, is no coincidence.

How many female geniuses have there been throughout the whole of human history? None, so far as any thinking being can tell. Perhaps there are one or two who are marginal.


Seriously?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Paul » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:58 pm

"Why do these stupids broads not want to listen to me?"

:pig:
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All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby catmoon » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:00 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Frankly, Kevin, to be blunt -- this is a very stupid way to put things. To say that male = consciousness and female = unconsciousness is plain stupid.



How many female geniuses have there been throughout the whole of human history? None, so far as any thinking being can tell. Perhaps there are one or two who are marginal.


My initial reaction was the same as Mr. Gordo's... "Holy CRAP, Kevin, you can't be SERIOUS".....

Are you aware that the senior admin of this board is female? (Her predecessor was too btw) I think you just walked into the whirling blades, bud.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:02 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Frankly, Kevin, to be blunt -- this is a very stupid way to put things. To say that male = consciousness and female = unconsciousness is plain stupid.


I don't know how many of the people that have been participating in this "Dharma-free-for-all" forum, since I've been here, are physically female, but I strongly suspect that the number is no higher than one or two.

I run a Youtube channel about philosophy with almost 1,500 subscribers, only 3% of which are female, and of that 3% at least half a dozen of them are male-to-female transsexuals.

This lack of interest in philosophy, and lack of interest in the realm of ideas, by those who are physically female, is no coincidence.

How many female geniuses have there been throughout the whole of human history? None, so far as any thinking being can tell. Perhaps there are one or two who are marginal.


Kevin:

Has it ever occurred to you once that perhaps women's general lack of interest in your philosophy has to do with its mysoginistic bent?

You see, I never participate in "philosophical" discussions of mysandrous feminsists. What would be the point?

So why should women participate "philosophical" discussions of mysogyinists men?

Your imputation about female geniuses is very immature. There have been countless female geniuses in all fields. For example, the first computer program was written by Lovelace. Here is a short list compiled out of 4000 years of famous woman in science.

http://www.astr.ua.edu/4000WS/timelist.shtml

You are stuck, Kevin. Just accept it and move on. You are reading history through a thick lense of mysogyny.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:03 pm

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Ah, KS.

Before the mods ban you, I commend you. You have been running rings round everyone since you got here precisely because no one can apparently understand the fact that all of what you say is a JOKE.

Folks, KS is FULL OF SH*T, he knows he is full of SH*T, and what he has been trying to tell all of you is that HE IS FULL OF SH*T and that you are all also FULL OF SH*T.

Is is just me as a dzogchen practitioner who can clearly see this?

BUDDHISM IS A BIG PILE OF COW TURD.
I BOW BEFORE MY GURU WEEPING TEARS OF JOY.
I LAUGH HYSTERICALLY AS I SEND THE TSUNAMIS CRASHING TO MURDER THE LIVES OF HUNDREDS OF INNOCENT CHILDREN.
I WEEP IN AGONY AS MY CHILD THE ANT DROWNS UNDERNEATH THE BLADE OF GRASS IN A RAINSTORM.
I WORSHIP JESUS AND SATAN AND MOTHER NATURE.
THERE IS NO GOD NOR ANY SATAN NOR ANY MOTHER NATURE.
THE BUDDHIST PATH IS COMPLETELY USELESS AND LEADS US ALL PRECISELY NOWHERE.
THERE IS ONLY ONE PATH TO LIBERATION, WHICH IS THE PATH OF BUDDHA.
THERE IS NO LIBERATION.
THE PATH IS LIBERATION.
I AM ALWAYS IN RIGPA.
I WILL NEVER EVER ONCE ACHIEVE RIGPA.

Don't ya'll geddit? To cut through BECOME NOTHING AND LET GO OF THE PRECIOUS BUDDHA. THIS IS THE ONLY BUDDHA THERE EVER WAS AND WILL BE.

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

If you all honestly can't tolerate a tiny little gadfly in the presence of such high and mighty and important practitioners - well, how high and mighty and important are you, really?

The heretic is the only true keeper of any of the holy books.

You are "nothing but a farting lout, stinking of alcohol and rank with lust!"
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby KevinSolway » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:06 pm

mr. gordo wrote:Seriously?


It's common knowledge among those who have examined these issues.

Camille Paglia, one of the foremost feminists of our times, says "If civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living in grass huts." - Sexual Personae, p38

Rousseau once said "Women, in general, are not attracted to art at all, nor knowledge, and not at all to genius".

catmoon wrote:Are you aware that the senior admin of this board is female?


The question is, has she been a regular participant in these discussions we have been having right here, right now, in this "Dharma-free-for-all" forum? Good on her if she has. I encourage participation.

I'm not saying for even a moment that there are no women interested in the Dharma. The more the better.

I think you just walked into the whirling blades, bud.


You may be right. And hope you're not. But if you are right, and I do meet the whirling blades, then it will be proving the Buddha's prophesy correct.
Last edited by KevinSolway on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:07 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Before the mods ban you, I commend you. You have been running rings round everyone since you got here precisely because no one can apparently understand the fact that all of what you say is a JOKE.


KTD, sadly, it is not true. I first encountered Kevin and David Quinn on Buddha-l and Buddhist back in the 1990's. They have very persistent and consistent.

I don't think they are joking at all.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:09 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
Rousseau once said "Women, in general, are not attracted to art at all, nor knowledge, and not at all to genius".



Typical blind mysogyny. Of course, if you like you can find many men whose thinking about the other sex is quite primitive and dismissive, since they cannot, in their myopia, see past the end of their own dicks.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:10 pm

KevinSolway wrote:"If civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living in grass huts."


Egypt's greatness arose in a maternal society.
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Re: Are women conscious?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:11 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Before the mods ban you, I commend you. You have been running rings round everyone since you got here precisely because no one can apparently understand the fact that all of what you say is a JOKE.


KTD, sadly, it is not true. I first encountered Kevin and David Quinn on Buddha-l and Buddhist back in the 1990's. They have very persistent and consistent.

I don't think they are joking at all.

N


THEN HE MUST DIE!

I will gladly light the the fire! Pretty!

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BWWWWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!

DIE my pretty!!!!!!!!!
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