Ultimate Truth

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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:41 pm

Sherab wrote:Hi KevinSolway, I've a question for you:

The relative truth refers to all that is conditioned.
The ultimate truth refers to all that is unconditioned.


This fails the test of a basic syllogism:

All that is unconditioned is ultimate truth;
space is unconditioned;
space is ultimate truth.

Your statement is therefore false because space is definitely not an ultimate truth.

N
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:14 pm

In Buddhist terms "ultimate truth" is realized by way of the method of total nongrasping at any truth, any idea. What "appears" with this recognition is a bliss characterizes by the Buddha's statement "Consciousness without feature, without surface, pure, luminous all around." The Buddha only says this twice in the Pali. It is very telling that it is not a cessation of itself, but it is a cessation of everything else. This is accessed by way of the fourth jhana. The fourth jhana is characterized by pure bright awareness. In the fourth jhana you engage in the 7 factors of awakening to release all asravas (urges, instinctual moves). If you look at the methods emerging from Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen, there is really no straying from this basic function.
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Virgo » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:04 pm

deepbluehum wrote: This is accessed by way of the fourth jhana. The fourth jhana is characterized by pure bright awareness. In the fourth jhana you engage in the 7 factors of awakening to release all asravas (urges, instinctual moves). If you look at the methods emerging from Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen, there is really no straying from this basic function.

That doesn't matter because people these days are too defiled to practice any jhana, nevermind the 4'th.

Even if they could, they are too defiled to gain the masteries of it.

Kevin
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:15 pm

Virgo wrote:That doesn't matter because people these days are too defiled to practice any jhana, nevermind the 4'th.

Even if they could, they are too defiled to gain the masteries of it.
Don't be silly, of course they can and of course they do, otherwise we are completely wasting our time practicing.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:11 pm

Virgo wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: This is accessed by way of the fourth jhana. The fourth jhana is characterized by pure bright awareness. In the fourth jhana you engage in the 7 factors of awakening to release all asravas (urges, instinctual moves). If you look at the methods emerging from Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen, there is really no straying from this basic function.

That doesn't matter because people these days are too defiled to practice any jhana, nevermind the 4'th.

Even if they could, they are too defiled to gain the masteries of it.

Kevin


That devilry might be somebody's teaching. But I certainly don't adhere to that. It's not so difficult, really.
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Virgo » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:27 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Virgo wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: This is accessed by way of the fourth jhana. The fourth jhana is characterized by pure bright awareness. In the fourth jhana you engage in the 7 factors of awakening to release all asravas (urges, instinctual moves). If you look at the methods emerging from Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen, there is really no straying from this basic function.

That doesn't matter because people these days are too defiled to practice any jhana, nevermind the 4'th.

Even if they could, they are too defiled to gain the masteries of it.

Kevin


That devilry might be somebody's teaching. But I certainly don't adhere to that. It's not so difficult, really.

Actually, deepbluehum, I am sure you can attain anything you wish. Seriously.

Kevin
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Sherab » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:35 am

Space, at least physical space (or space-time to be more exact) is created at the time of the Big Bang.

Namdrol wrote:
Sherab wrote:Hi KevinSolway, I've a question for you:

The relative truth refers to all that is conditioned.
The ultimate truth refers to all that is unconditioned.


This fails the test of a basic syllogism:

All that is unconditioned is ultimate truth;
space is unconditioned;
space is ultimate truth.

Your statement is therefore false because space is definitely not an ultimate truth.

N
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:04 am

Virgo wrote:Actually, deepbluehum, I am sure you can attain anything you wish. Seriously.


Such is the case of anyone. The problem is in the clarity of the instruction, not the people.
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:14 am

Greetings,

Virgo wrote:That doesn't matter because people these days are too defiled to practice any jhana, nevermind the 4'th.

So says Virgo, the self-proclaimed sakadagami.

:alien:

Leave aside this illogical/superstitious/defeatist Dharma Ending Age rhetoric and embrace the timelessness and steadfastness of the Dharma.

Maitri,
Retro. :)
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:19 am

Greetings,

Namdrol wrote:space is unconditioned

If you put something in that space, is it still regarded as space? If not, it being space is conditional upon the absence of matter.

Maitri,
Retro. :)
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:22 am

Yes, the space is still there, just occupied by the matter you placed. But it didn't disappear. You couldn't place anything there if there wasn't space. The matter is in the space. It doesn't eliminate it. If by placing matter in space, space would disappear, where would the matter be? Right?
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:43 am

This is where nonverbal teachings and introduction are so powerful. This is a definite limitation of internet interactions. If you say, there is no space there, what do you mean? There is an object there. But if you say, there is space there. Are you talking about space there? It is very nice to contemplate space.
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby wisdom » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:55 am

Interesting thing about matter and space:

When matter interacts with matter, its like a closed fist colliding with an object
When matter interacts with space, its like an open fist clutching a blanket, drawing space into itself (gravity)
When space interacts with matter, it moves into it unobstructed and without a fight
When space interacts with itself, it exists in state free from collision, clutching or fighting.

So when we realize ourselves as spacious...
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Sherab » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:14 am

Question for Namdrol and Dechen Norbu:

In the description of the death process, there is the dissolution of space.
If space is unconditioned, how can it dissolve?
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Jnana » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:27 am

retrofuturist wrote:Leave aside this illogical/superstitious/defeatist Dharma Ending Age rhetoric and embrace the timelessness and steadfastness of the Dharma.

Indeed.
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:46 am

Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me? :lol:
I don't know why you are asking this question to me and Namdrol. Probably Namdrol can give you the correct answer. I can only give you my interpretation of what I learned. So, caveat emptor!

How can you condition space? Forget our Western notion of space (that apparently can be twisted and bent) and think abstract space, as it was conceived. How can you condition it? Space has no defining characteristic, nor can we consider it in isolation prior to or apart from such characteristics. As it has no defining characteristics, how could it be conditioned? What would be conditioned? However, space appears to exist even if nothing positive can be asserted of it. So we must conclude that space is not existing, not non-existing, nor both existing and non-existing... as usual. So it has only conventional existence, thus not being ultimate. It can't yet be conditioned (what's there to condition and how?)

I never read anything about the Space element dissolving during the death process. Only Earth, Water, Fire and Wind or Air dissolving... after that come the 5th to the 8th cycles, but I don't remember learning about the dissolution of the Space element... what am I missing?
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Jnana » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:49 am

Sherab wrote:If space is unconditioned, how can it dissolve?

Not all ābhidharmikas maintain that space is unconditioned. The Tāmraparnīya Theravāda, for example, consider space to be just another conditioned dharma.
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:53 am

See, you also had Jnana here. :lol: You could have asked him too. He is a knowledgeable fellow who surely could provide you a better answer than I could.
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:54 am

Jnana wrote:
Sherab wrote:If space is unconditioned, how can it dissolve?

Not all ābhidharmikas maintain that space is unconditioned. The Tāmraparnīya Theravāda, for example, consider space to be just another conditioned dharma.


This is also something nice to contemplate, how space and time are conditioned. Looking at these two views of space, conditioned and unconditioned helps to cut through some dogmatism and traditional lingo.
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:55 am

No. ImageThey are WRONG! :lol:

;)
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