Ultimate Truth

[ground]

...it being space is conditional upon the absence of matter.

That's correct in the context of labelling. But there is no other context than labelling when applying terms and terminology like "space". The idea of "unconditioned space" in the context of dharma most likely is evidence for attachment to the idea of an "absolute".

"Space" - besides being used as metaphor - is a term describing mere absence of form. So the context is conceptual mind since the prerequisite is (at least subliminal) memory of form.


Kind regards

[Dechen Norbu]

...attachment to the idea of "absolute". Good one, this!

[Sherab]

No. They are WRONG!

[Sherab]

If space is unconditioned, how can it dissolve?

Not all ābhidharmikas maintain that space is unconditioned. The Tāmraparnīya Theravāda, for example, consider space to be just another conditioned dharma.

Thanks Jnana.

This is the first time I am seeing this term: "Tāmraparnīya Theravāda".

Are there other "types" of Theravāda?

[Jnana]

This is the first time I am seeing this term: "Tāmraparnīya Theravāda".

It's the ancient Mahāvihāravāsin Theras of Sri Lanka. It's their redaction of the Pāli Tipiṭaka which is still extant today.

Are there other "types" of Theravāda?

This is a somewhat complex question. In terms of canon and orthodox doctrine the current Theravāda is descended from the Mahāvihāra of Sri Lanka. Thus, all Theravāda bhikkhus share the same Vinaya. But many bhikkhus in Sri Lanka nowadays trace their ordination lineage back to a Thai lineage (Siyam Nikāya). And regarding doctrine, as with any living tradition, there is a fair amount of variation.

[Sherab]

And regarding doctrine, as with any living tradition, there is a fair amount of variation.

Does this mean that there are those within Theravada who would consider space (and the other four elements) to be conditioned while others would consider space (and the other four elements) to be unconditioned?

[Jnana]

And regarding doctrine, as with any living tradition, there is a fair amount of variation.

Does this mean that there are those within Theravada who would consider space (and the other four elements) to be conditioned while others would consider space (and the other four elements) to be unconditioned?

Probably not. There are some general differences in view, the nature of the awakened mind, and nirvāṇa, most notably in the Thai forest tradition. Then there's the controversial issue of reestablishing bhikkhunī ordination. Also, some are critical of a variety of commentarial tenets. A few even reject the Abhidhammapiṭaka and commentaries altogether, giving rise to modern Suttantika interpretations.

[Jnana]

"Great king, I recall having said, 'It is not possible that a priest or contemplative could know everything and see everything all at once.'"

MN 90 PTS: M ii 125
Kannakatthala Sutta: At Kannakatthala
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Why are you quoting the Pali Canon?

I only accept the Mahasamghika recension.

The Mahāsāṃghika is an extinct school and their canon is largely extinct as well. The Mūlasarvāstivāda is the ordination lineage of Tibetan Buddhists. If you practice Tibetan Buddhism why wouldn't you accept the Sarvāstivāda and Mūlasarvāstivāda sūtras, which are closer to the Pāli Theravāda? All three (Theravāda, Sarvāstivāda, & Mūlasarvāstivāda) are descendants of the ancient Sthaviravāda.

[gregkavarnos]

Coz he doesn't know what he's talking about? I certainly don't know what you are talking about!

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Greg,

Who, Jnana? I'd rank his knowledge of the evolution of Buddhist schools and texts up there with Ven. Huifeng and Namdrol, so he is certainly worth paying attention to... even if admittedly it can take a bit of effort to keep up.

Maitri,
Retro.

[gregkavarnos]

G'day Retro,

No, it is quite clear to me that Jnana knows what they are talking about (even if this historical development of schools stuff is just about polysyllabic sanskrit labels for me). I was refering to alwayson and his attachment to the Mahasamghika (polysyllabic sanskrit label) recension.

[Jnana]

I certainly don't know what you are talking about!

Just to further clarify for anyone interested: The Mūlasarvāstivāda is the ordination lineage of Tibetan Buddhists. A lay practitioner who has formally gone for refuge with a qualified lama in the Tibetan tradition is a Mūlasarvāstivāda upāsaka (male) or upāsikā (female). In addition, one can formally undertake one or more of the five lay precepts. Thus, there are four types of lay upāsaka or upāsikā: one who keeps the triple refuge; one who, in addition, keeps a single precept; one who keeps a few precepts; and one who keeps all five lay precepts. It's generally considered necessary to have gone for refuge and undertaken the lay pratimokṣa vow before one can formally take the bodhisattva vow. Also, in the Kudṛṣṭinirghātana section of his Advayavajrasaṃgraha, Advayavajra (Maitrīpa) states that mantrayāna practitioners should also go for refuge in the three jewels and abide by the five precepts.

For more details:

The Complete Works of Atisa, The Lamp for the Path & Commentary, pp. 59-65.
The Jewel Ornament of Liberation: The Wish-Fulfilling Gem of the Noble Teachings, pp. 137-146.
The Treasury of Knowledge - Book Five: Buddhist Ethics, pp. 100-102.

[Caz]

Shouldnt the title of this thread be more accurately called " Ultimate truth according to Kevin Soloway" ?

[Thug4lyfe]

We have a new Dharma brother who is very intellectual and very attached to his own understanding. How do you deal with a homeboy like that in real life? Just listen and smile? Even though I am one ill rhymin mofo on da street I still don't feel my eloquance is up there to be able to say helpful things to him incase he wants to talk alot.

How jos handle it?

[Paul]

We have a new Dharma brother who is very intellectual and very attached to his own understanding. How do you deal with a homeboy like that in real life? Just listen and smile? Even though I am one ill rhymin mofo on da street I still don't feel my eloquance is up there to be able to say helpful things to him incase he wants to talk alot.

How jos handle it?

Ask him how his meditation is.

[catmoon]

The sutras provide guidance on this. If he is very attached to his views, do not attempt to correct them, as this will lead to great anger and a hardening of his position.

This situation has been likened to someone who is far up a rickety ladder. If you kick the ladder, the fall will cause terrible injuries. A person has to be willing to come down off the ladder before one can get them to repair it or exchange it for a better ladder.

[Thug4lyfe]

Good advice homes! I think i'll leave it to my teacher to deal with da Dharmabruthah. hah I think I will just make some "I am busy helping mum doing the dishes" excuse when he wants to catch up and express his views!

[padma norbu]

Jim Carrey is a Buddha, too.

[Thug4lyfe]

eckhort Tolle....

[wisdom]

My room mate listens to Eckhart Tolle. I like what he has to say, and hes pretty funny about it too in his own way sometimes. I think it works for some people. Not everyone is going to have the body/mind/karma combination to be able to fully appreciate what Buddhism offers. In some ways listening to stuff like Tolle is no better or worse than being a lay Buddhist. It encourages people to be mindful, to meditate, and talks about important basic things like treat others how you want to be treated that so many people lose at some point along the way.